Hi there,
This thread is not about something utterly needed. It's more a curiosity.
In Skirmish games we have to choose between Higs and Vaygs for us and the AI opponent. At the same time eventually in the concept ships thread there's a concern to design for Higs and Vaygs again.
Couldn't we have another working race for HW Complex? I mean the idea would flow from a brand new race with its own techtree, ships and weapons to the total opposite, a mercenaire race armed with a diversified arsenal of strange vessels and some Higs and Vaygs filling blanks in the tech tree. We could consider even the case that the units look different although having the same stats, like in a almost perfect symetric warfare.
I gotta be honest that I haven't look out for this issue too far, if this is not new.
Anyway, I just want opinions and experience report.
*** - I've tried 3 times to put #FF8080, but it didn't work.
-Sagyxil: Color coding added-
I was thinking a bit about Progenitors. I have to say that I didn't research much, I'm just relaying in my imagery experience. The Progenitors are the kind of character role that anyone should take care with. I'd advise not to see them as another leveled race in Homeworld universe.
The fact is the progenitors don't use to appear as fleet or a large force. Its apperance always resemble a superior hi-tech and automated race and paradoxically a objective-oriented animal. By this, I'm implying that they are not strategical, because they don't have to. One ship here, another there. When it does appear it is a distinctive performance so although a lot of creative work will emerge to level them down as a competitive race against Hiigarans and Vaygrs, I don't think it is wise to carry it on that way.
As far as I've noted the Mods in general leave a lot of room for the original franchise. Just to give an example we are discussing and suggesting ideas for an SP campaign. Anyone messing with the "Eye of Arran" approach doesn't look attractive for me because we are like to be using a RESERVE, since this is mentioned in the original franchise. So, instead of adding something we would be on the opposite way.
I've sensed also that in Complex achievements, is hard to change directions when a decision is taken, although few experience I have to be saying this. But you really should discuss better among yourselves because the Progenitors don't belong to Complex, neither even to Relic or whoever.
It simply belongs to the future of the Homeworld franchise by the reasons exposed. For me, they are just far ahead.
I really tried to be humble in this analysis and I wanna state clear that I'm regarding and respecting the hard work you are probably be handling on, so I'd be glad if you wouldn't see this as some sort of fiercefull critic. I might be wrong about Progenitors if I'm misinformed somehow or you might have something to compensate that I'm not aware. But I have to say that the simple idea of just "Progenitor fleet/race" is not a good one. There must be something else.
So what else race should be added while staying close too the homeworld gameplay besides those progs we have seen looks awsome _________________ If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight
As far as I've noted the Mods in general leave a lot of room for the original franchise. Just to give an example we are discussing and suggesting ideas for an SP campaign. Anyone messing with the "Eye of Arran" approach doesn't look attractive for me because we are like to be using a RESERVE, since this is mentioned in the original franchise. So, instead of adding something we would be on the opposite way.
I'm not sure I understand, please explain. And I don't just mean looking at this example, but in my eyes the campagin has to 'follow on' from the previous one, or at least link into the previous games. Are you saying that it shouldn't use things that appeared in the previous campaigns (locations, special ships etc)?
Please explain _________________ Lead campaign writer, PM me if you have any ideas you would like to see
Voice acting director too (although not much work done there yet lol), so if you are intersted in voice acting for Complex 9, drop me a PM!
In my opinion, the Progenitor race will not really blend in with the rest, simply because they are so very powerful. Remember what a pain a single keeper was ? now imagine a battleship with keeper escorts.
Story-wise, the vaygr, or even the hiigarans, are simply not advanced to deal with progenitor ships on a larger scale.
If, on the other hand, the keepers are balanced, it would contradict the story. A compromise needs to be made, or to create a different gameplay altogether for the progenitors, to make sure their forces are on par with their more primitive counterparts. Just my 2 cents _________________ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Complex Team Gender: Age: 29 Joined: 27 Jan 2009 Posts: 2439 Post Vote: Location: Southern US Interests: Programming, 3d modeling, gaming Occupation: None currently
The Keeper were a very specific group of the Progenitors; they were the guardians of any relics left behind after the Progenitors left the galaxy (or existence.)
As far as I am aware; there haven't been any non-Keeper Progenitor ships presented in the original Homeworld 2.
Location: Hiigara: "Our home.". Interests: Homeworld 3 and Complex 9. Occupation: Nothing much, just savin' Hiigara from dieing. That's all.
Sagyxil wrote:
The Keeper were a very specific group of the Progenitors; they were the guardians of any relics left behind after the Progenitors left the galaxy (or existence.)
As far as I am aware; there haven't been any non-Keeper Progenitor ships presented in the original Homeworld 2.
Did you play the Single-player?
I guess not. Sajuuk, the Dreadnaught, the Bolgara gate, The big mothership where you get the dreadnaught in the first place, Movers, Drones, Eye of Arran, And I believe most of the debris that floats around in space in the levels where you meet first with the 2nd hypersace core (something like this, I can't remember).
These ships may be big capital ships. (Except the movers and the drones) But you can develop the story around the progenitors. That would be awesome. Then hiigs and vaygr get more powerful weapons on the battlecruisers and better weapons on the destroyers, maybe develop some ship that does destroyer and battlecruiser.
My point is: I'd like the progenitor story but the if hiigs and vaygr get more ships and more story to meet progenitors. For all else, I kind of agree with the topic starter: There needs to be an other race if you implent progenitor and keep weapon settings and/or amount of capital battle ships.
New race: The Beast! (Returns from !omeoWorld 1. (Still don't know where it went...))
The Keeper were ... there haven't been any non-Keeper Progenitor ships presented in the original Homeworld 2.
Ok, but for the sake of the original plotline, it would be more convincing if a new race that had inherited part of the Progenitors technology, like it has happened in a limited way to Vaygr and Hiigarans, were found with some Progenitor outlook and call them something else rather than calling them Progenitors with a low technology leveled with Higs and Vaygs.
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but in my eyes the campagin has to 'follow on' from the previous one,
Hi Bills6693,
Clearing out what I was saying, not advisable.
That's why some people were arguing to have a smaller campaign avoiding an epic approach.
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or at least link into the previous games.
Yes
As RicktheSnake has pointed out we have a fallen Empire after HW2, and a lot of Kiiths struggling for power inside Hiigara, a growing and vulnerable Empire. So you have multiple clashes going on different portions of space, allowing a lot of stories to be created in the actual post-HW2 technological stage, where Complex is largerly based.
From the programming point of view, we will try to have one campaign. From the storytelling point of view, we can have dozens of different campaigns maybe going on at the same time if you want. But we don't have to deal with a new network of hidden space gates.
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Are you saying that it shouldn't use things that appeared in the previous campaigns (locations, special ships etc)?
Yes, we should.
Let's take advantage of what has been done but to connect to new things instead of filling the blanks of what was left behind.
No matter how simple would be a Complex campaign it will be by far more difficult than HW2 to play.
Complex Team Gender: Age: 29 Joined: 27 Jan 2009 Posts: 2439 Post Vote: Location: Southern US Interests: Programming, 3d modeling, gaming Occupation: None currently
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I guess not. Sajuuk, the Dreadnaught, the Bolgara gate, The big mothership where you get the dreadnaught in the first place, Movers, Drones, Eye of Arran, And I believe most of the debris that floats around in space in the levels where you meet first with the 2nd hypersace core (something like this, I can't remember).
I will (tentatively) grant that the Movers could be a more mundane unit; however, the rest of the things you listed were very limited in their deployment or use.
The drones were only released by the Keeper Destroyer; so I still classify them as being Keeper-esque ships; rather than composing the majority of the Progenitor fleet. The Destroyer itself was likely a one-of-a-kind ship since you don't see any remains of others - be they destroyed or simply ruined.
Sajuuk, Balcora Gate, and the Eye of Arran seemed to be one of a kind. As is the section of the Progenitor Mothership where you find your dreadnaught.
The (2) dreadnaughts and (3) hyperspace cores were produced in very limited quantities (in this part of the HW galaxy at least.)
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Did you play the Single-player?
Yes, I did play the single-player game - to a point. After mission 10 or 12, though, the game stopped working properly and I could no longer progress in the campaign (though by then, I had lost most of my interest in continuing to play, so I didn't try very hard to fix it.)
[RANT//ON]
Spoiler:
Honestly, I found what I was able to play of the campaign in vanilla Homeworld 2 had little redeeming value. Many of the story-driven events in the campaign seemed arbitrary or poorly executed (For example; the infinite waves of enemy ships so casually sprinkled into several missions or the nigh-invulnerable ships that can only be destroyed in a single way. These sorts of things do not encourage experimentation or replay on the part of the player - merely gritting one's teeth and hoping for a lucky break in the next retry.)
[RANT//OFF]
Last edited by Sagyxil on Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:12 am; edited 1 time in total
Complex Team Gender: Age: 23 Joined: 02 May 2009 Posts: 688
Location: Vaygr Flagship Interests: Heavy fusion missiles Occupation: Gaming, being awesome
Farcrada wrote:
New race: The Beast! (Returns from !omeoWorld 1. (Still don't know where it went...))
The beast were my favorite all time race in any RTS, and I think the story in Cataclysm rivals the story in Homeworld 1, easily. It sure as hell had better emotion and voice acting (Karan S'jet, I love yah, but man your voice is monotone)
They were not in homeworld 1, they were in Cataclysm.
If you actually played the game you would know that eventually, due to the kiith Somtaaw, the beast were destroyed when cures for the beast infection were found after the Naggarok was destroyed by the Kuun'lan.
This being said, they will never be in Complex, the beast are gone in the Canon Lore, and the modeling required to do there ships with this engine, to our standards, is not possible. _________________
I think the time has come for the complex team to create a third race. I think the community atleast owes you that privilege due to the amount of work you have done. You could pick several options as the new race. The Beast, the Kadesh, the Taidan Republic, or a new civilization that comes from an unexplored part of the galaxy.
Progenitors are overall awesome as design and ideology, but im very curious to see how they will be balanced with the other races (story-wise, a bentusi explosion was needed to destroy 4 keepers, which, in my book, makes them very tough opponents).
Now, imagine u need to rush a progenitor MS/SY (way tougher than a keeper) with fighters and corvettes ... that would pretty much be like the polish riding on horseback against the german panzers in WW2. Suicide.
All i'm saying is that, story-wise, progenitors are nigh-impervious to hiigaran or vaygr weaponry. It'll be a tough challenge to make them credible in the homeworld universe as a playable race. _________________ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
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