Homeworld 2 Complex

General - Complex 12 feedback

MWLL_Vlaad - Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:12 pm
Post subject: Complex 12 feedback
Hi, long time follower here roughly since first complex.

Being that this is project based on passion and personal vision, I refrained from leaving feedback for earlier versions of complex as well as criticizing it too much as more than a few things rubbed me the wrong way.

For start, I have to say the you have my honest admiration for doing all this and keeping this mod alive. Awesome job!

From my subjective standpoint, I love this (RM) version of complex much more than old complex. Fleets are most certainly smaller, micromanaging comes more into play here and outcome is less focused on brute force and more on positioning... Until certain point.

However, it leaves much more to be desired, both from balance and technical standpoint.

I will announce, I never was a fan of juggernaut, weapon system such as mines and nuclear missiles, as well as uber-motherships.

Let me elaborate it a bit:

Jugger:

Destroyer class suicidal vessel with huge damage potential can under circumstances eliminate or heavily damage entire fleets. Add ability to hyperspace and things can spiral out of control really fast. Thematically, it never felt "higi".

Nuclear bombs and mines:

It is treated as a missile but is much larger (and slower) than a corvette. Damage potential is insane, it one shots destroyers (case with nuclear bombs). Brushing aside what it is, it has insane range and to top it off, it is buildable on destroyers. It flat out replaces some cannon systems. For example, in HW and HW2 universe entire ship is built around a weapon system (Vaygr BC) and here, we have an uption to outdamage/outrange its enture weapon system with a single buildable turret. To be clear, potential to one shot super capital and fired from a destroyer platform seems a bit broken. Visually, destroyer firing those looks a bit silly as each round is nearly 10% of its size. Granted, microing is one way but it gets really annoying really fast for something that can be produced on mass.

There are defenses against such weapons but its broken from technical side. Its not possible to manually target (even if it was, its not practical from gameplay standpoint) so ship will not fire at the missile unless its "locked on" to some target. When it does fire, it interrupts current order of given ship: For example, BC mounted fast laser turret will destroy the missile however, it will also cancel the current order. More often than not, it works to disadvantage. Here is a quick scenario:

BC starts shooting at the target (ion cannons) and opposing ship gives birth to a nuke. When in range of fast tracking turrets, shop will shoot down the missile but it will lose "tracking" of the target and not deal damage with its volley.

Since it IS a core design of the game I would propose to either allow those large weapons to be manually targeted/destroyable by anti fighter/corvette weapons.

Biggest gripe I have is in form of defense fields... for me, they are flat out game breaking: They are based on (variable) duration, not hit points and absorb nearly everything. Entire fleet of fully upgraded capital ships (4 destroyers, 3 cruisers, roughly 6-8 missile frigates), vaygr station and "uber cannon" on flagship could not kill one of those in timely manner. same fleet vapourised opposing "unshielded fleet". When in hands of a player... Silly things happen... 3 upgrades is enough to micro 2 frigates and shield entire fleet to the point where 3 BC's cant scratch paint from a destroyer.

Next, allowing those on motherships is plain silly... I was playing with a friend against 3 brutal CPU (higarans). On our first offensive, we each had 2 fully upgraded BC (so 4 in total) and a carrier as a utility vessel (ams and production). We were playing with small armies simply because game is unplayable with normal fleets (1080 gtx and appropriate CPU). Upon encountering combined fleets we wiped out 3 BC from few cpu and a bunch of smaller units only to arrive at CPU's mothership... Upon taking first bit of damage it activated its defense field... and by launching one by one of "viper missiles" slowly, like a killer in a slasher flick, butchered everything we threw at it. With just mothership.

Please, consider heavily reworking those elements.

From a technical standpoint: game has a problem at later stages of the game that it becomes too cluttered.. 4 Player game will produce lag even at lowest settings and small fleets. I never managed to finish a single multiplayer match due to desync (2 players, 3 cpu's brutal and small fleets).

Mowing while engaging is broken for me so positioning fleet adds to the gripe with field frigates.

On the end. i feel that complex was more when it was less. It tends to get cluttered (especially on the higaran side: Vortexes, stationary vortexes (platform).

Mind you, complex team, i'm pointing at things that in my opinion are out of place and beforementioned criticism/feedback is meant to improve the project not in any way belittle people who are putting their time into it Smile

Best regards!

Edit*

Seeing development plans of adding new races.. Guys, I think its a bit wiser to polish the gem you have than force new factions... Even now races play more or less similarly (tech tree is similar as is resource gathering, even weapon systems). Imho, without flushing out, its "more of the same".
Jelrak - Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:13 pm
Post subject:
I found similar difficulties with Nukes, Juggernauts, and Defense Fields. My solution was to split those abilities into different factions of Hiigarans so that a player could not own all of the above in a single match. This leads to differing strategies. I have also made the Defense Fields virtually immune to kinetic weapons, but partly vulnerable to missiles, mines, and bombs and fully vulnerable to energy beams.

However mine is still the Classic version and involves somewhat more of an industrial approach to ship production that may prove to be somewhat off-putting to any who might wish to simply enter into a quick skirmish.
Beghins - Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:38 pm
Post subject:
Thanks for the feedback, really appreciated.
I'll consider this for the version 13, in June.
About the lag and the difficulties to play with many ships in late phase I think is resolved, just now in current builds.
Other points are design but I'll pass on them one by one, thanks again
mrkhor - Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:04 pm
Post subject: Hiigarian Resource collector ODD behavior
i have play complex 12.2 quite some time now, i managed to play 1 Hiigara vs 4 Extreme AI strength. All the time with complex 12.2 i notice the resource collector behavior is odd. when i sent scavenger and resource collector to collect RU from blown asteroid, supposedly the resource collector will carry the debris to the nearest ship to drop it but somehow those resource collector prefer to drop it to mothership straight away and refuse to drop it to ship just next to it.

when in comes the scenario where asteroids are covered by high radiation nebula field and my scavenger equipped with anti radiation field. those resource collectors kill themselves by leaving the anti radiation field as they rush towards mothership, i could not get them to drop their resources to scavenger which is just next to them...lol

Poor resource collectors... and they ruined my game quite many rounds...lol

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here is my gameplay as example where you can see those odd resource collector behavior. you can jump to the time when i have entered GREEN NEBULA field and try VERY HARD to get those resources...lol

one more thing i need to point out. the time required for resource collector to drop the debris into mothership takes too much time to be done. when there are so many resource collectors coming, they lined up and basically a sitting duck waiting to die when enemies attacks...
Oni - Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:59 pm
Post subject:
Yep typical homeworld behavior.
Beghins - Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:37 pm
Post subject:
I know, we can do something for this, btw you have a lot of lag, I can assure that C13 will rum more more smoothly!
mrkhor - Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:06 pm
Post subject:
Oni wrote:
Yep typical homeworld behavior.


Do you mean that is normal?

Beghins wrote:
I know, we can do something for this, btw you have a lot of lag, I can assure that C13 will rum more more smoothly!


Well.... i am running the game on my slow Laptop i5 3337U, Nvidia gt620M (overclocked), SSD, 8GB RAM, WINDOWS 10 pro 64-BIT + game mode on.

Actually i dont expect it to be able to play complex but it did...lol

but good to hear C13 will optimize the game, i look forward to it. but i dont expect much from my slow PC...lol
mrkhor - Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:48 pm
Post subject: Few more suggestion
Based on complex 12.2, there are 2 suggestion I have.

1) the "complex battle field game type" is not as fun as complex 9.1 "complex extra" . Complex 9.1 enemy waves does not based on enemy CPU mothership production, I like the way 9.1 spawn enemy waves. While complex 12.2 enemy waves are based on CPU production which also relies on RU which CPU collect. The complex 12.2 enemy waves will comes into problem when the entire map RU has depleted and following enemy waves turns out to be much easier to defeat as enemy waves continues. Overall, the game play are short and not challenging.

2) this is to solve the RU problem for the 1) suggestion.
The RU fusion need some tweak for more RU production. The total cost to build and upgrade ships and fusion technology is too high for such little RU generation. I have calculation it would took hours to cover the cost of fusion before it yeilds "extra RU"
Beghins - Sat May 12, 2018 11:58 am
Post subject:
point 1 is fixed I think,
point 2 needs clarification, which race?
mrkhor - Mon May 14, 2018 2:38 pm
Post subject:
Beghins wrote:
point 1 is fixed I think,
point 2 needs clarification, which race?


I only play Hiigara race for both complex 9.1 and 12.2 and yes i am refering Hiigara race.
Well... In complex 9.1 the fusion tech is much practical for RU crisis as mobile refineries able to generate RU which is not in the complex 12.2.


To be honest, i have no idea how to balance the game but i would say the " complex battle field" game type RU source need some adjusent for long gameplay for further enemy wave ronunds. Else , both CPU and player could not last or survive long gameplay.
Beghins - Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:16 pm
Post subject:
ok in build 37 you'll notice improvements on fusion and the RU fields in "battlefield" mode are more durable
Koril - Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:46 pm
Post subject:
Since Turanic Raiders are my favorite faction, I can't help but make a suggestion regarding them;

I like how they are far more straight forward and simple compared to the other factions, but I feel they lack a late-game punch necessary to compete with the other races. That might be solved with the addition of a destroyer and a general purpose frigate The sheer power other races can throw at you chews through ion frigates and corvettes like crazy, and their carriers just don't seem to pack enough of a punch by the time you unlock their cannons. Even fully researched, the enemy just seems to be able to field MORE ships than I can, which is probably because they get to field 4 or more destroyers or other capitals.

Maybe I'm just playing them wrong, I can't be sure.

Edit: Also it seems like Turanics just cannot generate enough power. Late game they're all at 0% bleeding .7 power with no ability to run shields and half-powered weapons. Power research is not enough to save them.
Beghins - Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:57 pm
Post subject:
ion frigate must have an additional ability to make them more powerful I'm agree
Koril - Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:06 am
Post subject:
Beghins wrote:
ion frigate must have an additional ability to make them more powerful I'm agree


Right off the top of my head would be giving them a Trinity Cannon Shot similar to the carriers as cooldown, like the heavy bombs.

They could also probably benefit from a greater unit cap to compensate for their two missing ship classes. Not having Destroyers/Cruisers/BattleCruisers means missing out on a LOT of firepower that the other races can throw down. That's like, six BIG ships they just don't get to have.
Oni - Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:28 am
Post subject:
Why dont make unlimited carriers and turn them into capital ships fleet
Koril - Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:15 am
Post subject:
I have a second suggestion that I think will really add to the Turanic Raiders toolkit. I'll wait until build 38 drops for Complex 13 before really trying to determine where they lag, but in any case;

I feel like, given their lack of ships in general, the Turanic Raiders could use a general purpose frigate. I'd suggest designing one by taking the Ion Array Frigate as a model base, stripping off the arrays and instead adding two turret struts similar to the Mothership/Battlecarrier, giving them four kinetic turrets. And at the front, plaster a pair of plasma bomb launchers over the hole where the ion cannon normally is. By using existing assets this should hopefully save a chunk of work. This creates a stock Assault Frigate on par with their Kushan and Taiidan contemporaries, but one that looks properly Turanic. And to carry on from the Corvettes, allow them to replace those turrets with laser turrets or rapid ion turrets as research progresses, keeping with their modular theme and allowing the frigate to fill multiple roles. without needing multiple frigates, and letting them screen for the heavier-hitting but more fragile Ion Array Frigates. I hope this is in keeping with your goal of them being a more simple faction. A few modular chassis per class seems like it is in keeping with your design goal.

I haven't come up with anything that would fit for the destroyer class, and I assume the Mothership/Battle Carrier is meant to serve as their Heavy/Battle Cruiser after all of its upgrades.

After 38 drops I'll try to post something in the dev forum and take a hard look at how they stack up against the more complex factions and see if I can't suggest easy fixes that fit with their design goal.
Oni - Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:54 pm
Post subject:
Can you make some concept pictures ?
Koril - Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:06 pm
Post subject:
Sure thing, I'll make something after work. Fair warning it'll be rough :v
Oni - Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:39 pm
Post subject:
Its about capture the idea, not to be awesome.
Koril - Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:57 am
Post subject:
Alright, here's a rough mockup of the idea;

Top Down View:

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Or


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And maybe put spikes or antenna where the wings normally go, I dunno.

From the front, bomb launchers replace ion cannon. Each strut holds two turrets:

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This would match the stock vanilla configuration of a HW1 Assault Frigate. And you could allow it to change its turrets like a Gun Corvette for added flexibility/utility.
Beghins - Sat Jun 23, 2018 10:39 am
Post subject:
It shouldn't hard to do, we have to release but we could invest few time to implement this, oni?
Oni - Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:03 am
Post subject:
I will look on that.
Beghins - Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:09 pm
Post subject:
OK, task in Jira, we'll postpone the C13 release of few days then
Oni - Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:00 pm
Post subject:
Well, there is some logics behind the scene in ship designs and they role.
Frigate ship is aproximateli equivalent of one medium turret.
So the whole ship is like 1 turret.
And 4 turrets are like one capital ship. 4 frigates vs destroyer should be aproximateli equal in 4vs1.
Anyway the way how things are designed by scale it is frigate should fit into frigate hangar bays. but medium turrets are really big in compare with frigates and there is a not writen rule.
Frigate should fit/carry one medium turet in size and dmg statistics.
If you look at the picture thats the real unit scale compared with turrets hardpoints.
If we rescale the frigate ship to match the size with turrets it will be big like destroyer.
That means it will not fit into frigate hangar bay. compared with firepower it will be like destroyer in size of frigate.

Anyway, i have a idea :)
Check the recommended mopdification.
Koril - Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:10 pm
Post subject:
That redesign looks better than my idea, and even keeps the iconic wings. Very neat!
Beghins - Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:30 am
Post subject:
We should try to do the frigate as in picture 3-4-5, the recommended picture doesn't add stuff, it's the same frigate with two turrets so it doesn't worth, so try to scale up the frigate and scale down the attached part to make it dockable into hangar, if it's not possible we must leave this task, it's taking to much effort/time
Oni - Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:24 pm
Post subject:
And what about this ?
Beghins - Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:42 pm
Post subject:
you done it, so I like the double front cannon (plasma) and it will be custom on 2 turrets, be sure that the 2 arrays will keep the space for the turrets, when in close position
mrkhor - Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:32 pm
Post subject: Noticed a bug and unit display difficulty
1) Sound effect bug...

When i play complex 12.2 as hiigara race, we can hear the a deep noise when we zoom close to a group of resource collectors harvesting resources. But sometimes even i zoom of the scene and view other places, that deep noise do not go out and keep playing the deep noise sound effect for like 30 seconds before it stops.

Steps to trigger the event: hiigara race, mothership and carrier park at RU stones as close as possible , make those RU stones full resource collector collecting resources, then try to scroll and zoom in and out at a resource collector. Might hear a deep noise keep playing evem though we are viewing other places.

2) Unit indicator interface difficulty

We can change the unit identification display by pressing the "tab" button. There are 3 modes

1-no unit indicator

2-unit indicator on, but only visible when we zoom out far enough, problem happens when enemy units are mixing among in my fleet battling. I cannot see clearly and pin point the target that i want to focus attack since i have zoom close enough and the unit indicator do not display.

3-the unit indicator are turned on permanently regardless of zooming distance. But sadly the module effect radius indicator turn on as well making my display looks very complicate and confusing...

So i here by suggest to add a mode just to turn on unit indicator permanently that DO NOT affect by the zooming distance. So player can distinguish own unit and enemy clearly.

There is one more i need to point out, when i turn the 3rd mode to display the module effect radius in complex 12.2 the game lags heavily. It does not happen on complex 9.1 . Just to let you guys know what i have encountered with my slow pc. Here is my pc spec:

i5 3337U
NVD GT 620m
8GB ram dual channel ddr3
Win10 pro 64bit
Kingston SSD
Game graphics: resolution 720p all low settings.
ALC - Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:02 pm
Post subject:
Oni wrote:
And what about this ?

This is a much better design.
In looking at the frigate with big turrets concept, it reminds me a bit of the idea of the Graf Spee-type 'pocket battleship' -there is a limit to the size of the gun emplacements that can be put on a small hull platform.
It looks neat on this design Smile
haymana48 - Sat Jun 30, 2018 5:57 pm
Post subject:
Hey guys, I just installed complex12.2 (what said to be in the text file) but i didn't launch..
What could be the problem??
Thanks in advance.
Koril - Sun Jul 01, 2018 2:14 pm
Post subject:
haymana48 wrote:
Hey guys, I just installed complex12.2 (what said to be in the text file) but i didn't launch..
What could be the problem??
Thanks in advance.


Depends where you got it from;

If you're using steam, you need to activate it by going into the mod menu from the main launcher.

If you got it from moddb, you need to make sure that your shortcut has had the -mod .big file path added to it.
M.V.K. - Sun Aug 05, 2018 1:55 am
Post subject:
I would say in general I completely understand a lot of what is being said in terms of say some ships and features being kinda of like a "Dud-Effect" in-game.

But I will point out though for Mines what seems to be a conflicting issue, is the type of mine being used and what it amounts to if used.
If not mistaken, there is a controllable mine like missiles, there is a mine like a mine, there are guided-mines:non-controllable, and there are mines used like bombs.

I like the idea of them all, but the standard mine use seems to suffer in overall actual operating terms then any functioning difference for it terms to any others. Normal in game Mines are now more buggy then before, but there are least still say mines to use for the outcome without that expense for it. But of such, changes say the values of things played for what isn't played that still should be able for play.

Nuclear Bombs seem to be the same way, but even then if as such, still seems to be that rather both sides would have them or not has always seemed the question, but in long-game runs should that question really matter if one still did have and the other wouldn't?
To me long-game runs makes sense why the Hiigarans have Juggernauts.
And even think to a point of Cataclysms' storyline, could probably even fit some.

Uber-motherships/Main Ships makes some sense as well, but the rest of the game should say have some set for such then just being a ship that just wins alone in any match.
In multi-player terms, having a powerful main ship makes sense given say playing against numerous players at say one-time for whatever instances. But does say support those players having just as equally powerful ship of course, unless some map settings set otherwise say least till then. (Ranks, Counts, etc..)

I would say overall Complex could always use more, but having say more to use seems more the idea. Given say having more than to use, would say not more to use. I would say though gives me more to do with just having more.
But getting more use of "what" there is then adding what isn't there to have as could be a good approach.
Especially on things like Research, I honestly thought Complex would bring back the old Research Pane/Screen, but did not, but did very well for not doing so.
But again to me, the idea of the Research Pane/Screen makes things like questions for weapon systems and etc as mentioned before more reasonable to manage for myself.

I might try to add more about this later.


Thanks,

M.V.K.
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