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General - CBG Balance report thread ( April 22 update)

Nakamura - Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:35 pm
Post subject: CBG Balance report thread ( April 22 update)
Red = huge problem/imbalance, almost game breaking. Deviation from the suggested change is not advised.

Orange = "medium" imbalance, deviation from the suggested change is acceptable.

Yellow = Other requests

8.x- next version

Design :

CRITICAL : Starting resources need to be : 3000 for tactical, 5000 for normal, 8000 for deathmatch, 11000 for carnage
For this to work, vaygr need their 1st level of RU storage research unlocked in deathmatch and carnage

Each game mode needs the construction speed multipliers increased by 10%

Introduce a crew recruiting system to vaygr that is faster than the hiigaran one. They should NOT get maximum capacity right away.

Give the Vaygr command fortress 3 build-able perforation bomb launchers, a heavy fusion missile set and a heavy mine layer set.


Fighters, corvettes and frigates MUST be available at the start.You're destroying the dynamics of the game. Capitals can be available at lieutenant rank.

GAME BREAKING IMBALANCE: Missile bombers and Multi-Role fighters need a commander prereq

Stats :

Increase assault craft accuracy by 10 %. They are USELESS in the opening

Increase crew recruiting speed of Hiigarans by 20%

Increase the speed ships dock at by 30%

Increase speed on mortar missiles so that they can't be outrun so easily.

Increase lance platform damage by 20%

Increase xbomber anti subsystem damage by 30% (do we really need this ship?)

For C9
Design/overall :

Modular destroyer for Hiigarans (use the rebalance mod)

Power: completely rework the mechanic based on this : :
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Experience : Increase the speed of gaining it by 30%

Give the Hiigaran command fortress, the drone and the patcher a new model each .

Economy :
Trade convoys must have a fixed profit based on distance.

Reduce the RU power up to +300% boost
ALC - Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:52 pm
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As usual, any updates to be integrated into the first post.
Nakamura - Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:31 am
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Thread updated.
Separated urgent tasks from stuff to be done for C9.
Nakamura - Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:24 am
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I read the log, you did a pretty satisfying job.
Made good points, like nukes being counter-able very easily.
I may not agree on the ping thing, but I decided to investigate it some more before saying anything.

About the increased resource and collector numbers for the starting fleet :
I'll make a separate thread, showing my exact calculations.
Complex, as an RTS game must hit one criteria : you MUST be able to constantly build collectors.
Nakamura - Fri Sep 28, 2012 8:18 pm
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Found EXTREME problems with the vaygr booming followed by cruiser + flagship rush.
It can be done at 8 gameyears, when Hiigarans hardly have anything to beat the perforation pods.
That weapon is truly ridiculous, simply overpowered. It keeps launching pods for over 2 minutes. Why the hell?
Provide upgrades, if you think it's not good enough against late game anti-missile systems, but this is really overdone.

Hyperspacing the mothership/flagship needs to cost twice as much as it does now. They are too good offensive weapons.
Other ships need a 20% hyperspace cost increase too. The upgrades help this anyway.

the changes in the original post are very urgent, the early game is still broken.
Nakamura - Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:42 am
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There is nothing to test until those things are in the way. We can't set up a midgame.
Beghins - Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:11 pm
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OK, we will work on them one by one
Walkop2011 - Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:23 pm
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I have to add that Multi-Role fighters and Missile Bombers are still much too effective against their intended target. Missile Bombers have not only the missile launchers, but also Plasma Bomb Launchers. 1 salvo from 2 squadrons can destroy 1 or more frigates with ease.

The Multirole Fighters are just a bit too versatile IMO, they need a nerf to their main weapon.

In addition, the Drones buildable from the light shuttle and regular shuttle fail miserably against fighter class ships. They're also not that great against Corvettes, but that is listed as their specialty in the description for the ship. They are actually pretty good at defending, as they soak up a lot of damage. But they don't dish it out at all. They need a considerable boost to accuracy.
Nakamura - Tue Oct 02, 2012 10:13 pm
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Missile bombers, definitely.
I haven't seen enough multirole fighters in action. Can you describe how well they do atm?
And I have the same observations about the drones. They were too good once, but now they are just bad at what they are supposed to do.
Walkop2011 - Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:34 am
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Nakamura wrote:
I haven't seen enough multirole fighters in action. Can you describe how well they do atm?
The AI uses them extensively. They're like the Shiry but with Plasma Bomb Launchers attached - I haven't done specific tests, but that is the best approximation I can give.

As for Drones, yes; they just don't fit the role anymore. I had 5 or 6 of them (LITERALLY) chasing 1 missile bomber for a whole minute and they never took it out.
Nakamura - Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:36 am
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I'll look into all for specific numbers when i get some time.
ALC - Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:03 pm
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Walkop2011 wrote:
As for Drones, yes; they just don't fit the role anymore. I had 5 or 6 of them (LITERALLY) chasing 1 missile bomber for a whole minute and they never took it out.
could we lose the Drones altogether then?
Beghins - Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:12 pm
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Nakamura - Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:09 pm
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Me too, just a few problems.
rorik - Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:11 am
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I cant edit first post, need rights.

VGR Missile Bomber is overpowered, its attack power must be decreased by 50%. Today VGR can win with only hordes of this unit.

VGR Missle BC is too weak - all it can do on battlefield - its to die incredible fastly. Maybe it needs more armor and strike power?

VGR still have too small energy level in late game. Its impossible to fight against hi-level hiigaran, when you have -50 energy with all energy upgrades done (ofcourse you have huge fleet, many buildings, research,cloac etc BUT hiiganans have not this problem)

HGN Defender drone is overpowered, its attack power must be decreased by 30%

HGN Mothership Ion Cannon is incredible overpovered. need -50% nerfing.
Nakamura - Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:48 am
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I already mentioned the energy issue to Beghins but he dismissed it...

Editing in everything, because you make valid points. Complex has a lot of imbalance, hard to recall everything, that's why there is a need for a balance team. Glad you're back.
rorik - Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:09 pm
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Glad to see there all of you)
Beghins - Tue Nov 06, 2012 8:18 pm
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lazer72 - Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:07 pm
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Not sure if I should be posting here but I wanted to say whether If it was possible to increase the speed Capital ships, such as Destroyers, leave the Mothership after being built.
It just takes so long. Sad
Nakamura - Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:48 pm
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There are docking upgrades. Use them. On-board modules help too
rorik - Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:26 pm
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There are NO upgrades, that can increase speed of docking/undocking.
Those "docking" upgrades just increase REPAIRING SPEED in dock.

Missile Platforms of both races is trash - something wrong with its damage and fire angles.
Beghins - Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:03 pm
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Vgr Missile BC was bugged, now works.
Vgr energy production increased by 5% progressive
Nakamura - Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:08 pm
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I've looked again into all the previously mentioned change requests and updated the main post. These elements need to be fixed, and soon.
ALC - Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:18 am
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What is the difference between the Orange and Red recommended changes in the first update post?
Nakamura - Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:22 am
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Red = huge problem/imbalance, almost game breaking. Deviation from the suggested change is not advised.

Orange = "medium" imbalance, deviation from the suggested change is acceptable.

I don't use green because that would mean "solved issue", and I always remove those from the list.
Nakamura - Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:04 pm
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Did a few tests.
Very good job on the perforation pod controller. With this slow fire rate it now truly is an emergency weapon.

There are a few more problems to take care of, but one goes above all :
vaygr research energy consumption must be decreased by 40%
ALC - Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:50 pm
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Nakamura wrote:
Did a few tests.
Very good job on the perforation pod controller. With this slow fire rate it now truly is an emergency weapon.
This is good to hear, that the perf pod are balanced.
Nakamura - Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:50 pm
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So Beghins says that the research stuff is a bug, so I'm removing that from the list. Once that is solved, we need minor unit adjustments, and for C9 we need further limiting to purchase-able missile weaponry, as well as improvement of a few design elements.

Currently I find these 2 to be the most important suggestions :
Skip intro : Have all hyperspace capable ships jump in from hyperspace. No undocking. Vaygr mobile refinery needs to undock, not hyperspace.

The capital class splitting of battle/build capable capitals needs to be changed to standard/super capital. Therefore build capable ships would be again together with the rest, but super capitals would be the new category instead. This will balance the late- to deep late game transition by creating a research level barrier.
The global upgrades for this class should be 25% more expensive than the standard capital upgrades.

Alewx - Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:31 pm
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May I say that the researchpoint values for the researchmodules are feeling far too low? The 450 points are reached when already at LT. rank.
To me it can be doubled without problems.
Nakamura - Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:28 pm
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Updated with recommended changes for 8.4
Please do not ignore red components. They are crucial. The community complaints were massive after the last release, I've read them all and put the list together accordingly.
Also do not release a new version until most are fixed. People will not see a reason to download it.
Nakamura - Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:22 pm
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I'll do the touching to the files in event you agree to use them in the mod.
Nakamura - Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:59 pm
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Updated this in the light of the new change log updated by Beghins. Most of the things previously mentioned seem to have been taken care of. We'll see if that's true after 8.4 is out!

Here is Beghins' change log btw.

UI Battle Capital Ships splitted in Capital and Super Capital Ships
New background for maps with planets
Hgn Suppression Turret added
Vgr Lance Platform added
Vgr Rattle added
Vgr "rank retrocession" bug fixed
Criptical bug (out of sync and CTD) caused by Hgn Mobile Gravity Well Generator fixed
Criptical bug (out of sync and CTD) caused by crew cell destruction fixed
Evacuation Cell UI icon bug fixed
Hgn Crew Cell wait bug fixed
Button events missing in multiplayer fixed
Hgn Command Fortress and Orbital Station parade bug fixed
Vgr now can use the Ping ability (Scout)
Criptical bug, Hiigaran now can build the Balkan Cannon on Gujking
Hgn Fleet Selector layout improved
UI build/research info window width enlarged 250->300
Vgr Carrier cost increased 1700->2000
Scavengers build family moved to Capital
Hgn Capital Ships (CS, RS, PS, Cruisers/Destroyers), launching/docking operations speed increased (from Mothership)
Fighter docking repair rate + 20%
Corvette docking repair rate +30%
LAG optimization, RAM load -15%
Hgn Evacuation System improved
Hgn Recruiting System improved
Hgn Flak attack vs fighter increased by 50%
Hgn Bomber/Heavy Bomber attack vs Capital Ships increased by 20%
Hgn Gunship attack vs fighter/corvette increased by 20%
General research speed increased by 3%
AI platforms/turrets max capacity added
Minor code improvements

Looking really good so far.
Nakamura - Thu Mar 28, 2013 1:24 pm
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Updated for 8.4.1
Lots of problems were solved, but Hiigaran early game is terrible because of the lack of available crew - a too early crew station is forced : this is exactly what needed improving, and it just got worse after this update.

Pretty nice job on the new stuff. The lance platform needs a bit more firepower, though.

Soon I'll do an analysis on maps too.
Nakamura - Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:44 pm
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Apparently I've made a mistake in my test games. The available crew is maximal at the start of the game. I must have lost some of my ships there. Ignore my previous comment on initial crew limit for Hiigarans.
Thread updated.
rorik - Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:53 pm
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I've noticed one thing with hiigaran crew in 8.4.1 - i had three games and in 2 of them i saw in crew window: 60/80/150 - why? is it bug or feature?

Also vaygrs have a bug - sometimes it shows that crew limit is full for(like 150/150/150) but really crew use was about 80. this bug appears for 5-10 seconds.
Nakamura - Sat Apr 13, 2013 7:30 pm
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Updated. New change log is really exciting and will probably bring decent balance. As a next task I will prioritize finding under-powered ships in both fleets. After that the reports will focus on suggested features and mechanic changes.
Nakamura - Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:04 am
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Updated. Finding lots of issues resolved thanks to other changes.
New issues arise though, especially with Hiigaran crew recruiting.

On anything but Complex tactical, the game is in a playable state now.
Nakamura - Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:42 pm
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The following two MUST be in the next release. I can provide you with full resourcing calculations if you need a reason, but it would take long to write down and for you to read too. To make the game more dynamic, these MUST be implemented.

CRITICAL : Starting resources need to be : 3000 for tactical, 5000 for normal, 8000 for deathmatch, 11000 for carnage

Increase crew recruiting speed of Hiigarans by 20%

Nakamura - Mon Apr 22, 2013 4:41 pm
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I'll include CBG mentions into the "new feature beta" modification I'll make.

Also, CRM is way more fun now than Complex... we need to steal some of their adjustments. See first post.
Nakamura - Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:14 pm
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I have completed the inclusion of most of the CBG reports, as well as some new features and bugfixes into the game, and present them as a patch to the current complex here :
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My comments on the effects :
The effect of the changes is intense. Not only does the game play completely differently, the expert AI almost crushed me in the opening(I haven't had a tough game against the AI since 7.4.4 . You probably know that currently the AI would arrive at your doorstep very early with some harmless interceptors... now here the AI came with a mix of corvettes, fighters and frigates. I struggled with power so much, that all of it got drained before I got my economy going properly and got a power buildup again.

Long story short - the rank restrictions on smaller ships is probably the core change, and should really be in complex. I wasn't expecting anything spectacular, but this worked out super well.

With this implemented, we'd be almost ready to release the final version of the 8 series (at least from a balance perspective)
Walkop2011 - Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:27 pm
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I still have to say that Flak Frigates are sorely lacking in anti-fighter power. For the price, there's no point in using them - they fall too quickly to bombers, and an Interceptor is more effective. They need another 40% damage boost to fighters, IMO. Actually, boosting the range of the explosion would also be helpful. Currently, the Flak burst doesn't actually affect the whole squadron. It only affects 3-4 ships. A increase of 40-60% in explosion radius would be very helpful.

I need to do more specific tests in order to be sure of the exact change needed, but I'll get around to that when I have time. I'm still fairly busy.
Nakamura - Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:56 pm
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Yeah, please test it with the upgrades and all that. I don't exactly know which one to change either.
ALC - Fri May 04, 2018 10:17 pm
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