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Complex 13.4 feedback
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king_yo

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:28 pm    Post subject:  Complex 13.4 feedback
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Hello,

Me and a friend started playing this mod about 2 weeks ago. We like it and we like the idea. However we feel like it is plagued with things that prevents it not only from really shining, but to actually simply be playable.

Note that we didn't play the complex mod on HW2, so we don't know what the end goal actually looks like. We don't even know if the target is the same as it was for complex 9.1.


This is a list of general feedback on negative points. We either experienced those things ingame or while testing (or both).
Also note that problems may come from HW:R itself and not necessarly from the mod, we didn't differenciate as we didn't really play vanilla HW:R.
We also only played version 13.4, no other version on HW:R

I don't want to be rude but it is going to sound rude; honestly the sate of the mod surprises me considering it is more than 3 'full' versions in, did not starts from scratch experience wise since there was already complex 9.1, and especially since there is a patreon and actual money involved (ofc it is not mandatory).

I feel that some things/bugs are really huge and should not make it into a version.

This is going to be a long list, and unfortunatly, a list that is most likely not complete.

This post is not to bash, but to help.


Game breaking bugs/exploits :

- Access violation

- out of sync

- ships killing themselves on rocks (collector/controller) or on capital ships (fighters/corvettes) (I have even seen interceptors kill themselvs on a ressource collector...), Salvage corvettes crashing themselves when going for an attack, or when already attacking and getting an move order.

- ships stucking themselves into each other. Happens out of dock when something prevent them from moving. For example, if a contoller is in front of an ressource rock, the collector will get out of the ressource drop off area, and stay there because the rock blocks them. The next collector will do the same thing, and they will be stuck into each other.

- only one player will be affected by the game speed (slow/normal/fast), all the other will be on fast. I believe only the xp gain is correctly affected to everyone (not 100% sure). Which player is affected is a combination of player slot and race. If all player have the same race, the player with the smallest slot will have the set game speed (slot 1 player). If players have different races, a race take priority over the others. From my testing, taiidan was the race with the biggest priority. So for example, 4 players, 2 hiigaran (slot 1 and 2), 2 taiidan (slot 3 and 4), the taiidan with slot 3 will be the player with the correct game speed. All the other will be on fast.

- How to test this :
Set up what you want between race/slot and, at the start of the game, skip the intro and bluid a harvest control module.
Fast will be built at 0:42s
Normal will be built at 0:59s
Slow will be built at around 1:21/1:31s (not sure)
This bug basically forces you to play on fast, or add a bot to take the bad spot and at least have the xp on the set game speed. Not ideal.


- Every ship's wreck on an squad will give a % of the squad price instead of the solo ship price. For example, a squad of bomber (1000res) will give 5*800 res in wreck to salvage.

- Ships produced to replace lost ship in a squad give production points.

- The last 2 points combined make for a huge exploit. Get a squadron, dock it. Scuttle it when one of the ship is docked. When the new squadron comes out (with the new ships, for free production points), scuttle it when all of the ships are out but the last one. Dock it again and repeat. You get infinite amount of production for free, + big wrecks to salvage.

- Similar exploit can be done with weapon slots. For example, on a mothership, do 1 kinetic turret (300) and copy it (500), then retire each kinetic turret (240*4=960 res). The costier the weapon slot is, the more res it will give.

- Squadron docking on ship that don't let them enter (for example support frigate from taiidan), will create bugged new ships. The free ships will be stucked inside the support unit.

- Ressource Collector ship being stucked. I have seen collector ships just stucked in front of a taiidan mothership drop off spot, with nothing around to block it. It was just being still, like if it was waiting his turn, but the slot was free.

- Overall inaccuracy/lack of information given on screen. You just can't trust the tooltips, you have to test everything yourself.
- I can never tell what is the hp of my ships. Between the life stat, the actual HP number when you hover the right tiny spot on the ship's stat, and the actual life bar being displayed, nothing makes sense. The numbers are all over the place, the life bar randomly jumps, the HP numbers jumps too.
- Differences in actual ressources gained and the details of the ressources gained tab. For about 1 point in fusion in the detailed ressource stats, you get about less than half of it in real res.
- Ressource drops from collector don't give what their cargo says can hold. (might be linked to the game speed bug)
- per second stats don't seem to be per second. See fusion for example, if it says 7/s, it won' give 7RU/s, either in the real res tab or detailed res tab, and whether you look at the ingame clock or count 1s irl.
- Hiigaran scavanger's fusion tooltip says 5-15 RU/s, actually give's 7RU/s (when selecting the unit).
- Hiigaran excavation tech give's 20% per level, tooltip says 10%.
- Excavation upgrade gives % based on base stats (lvl 1 gives 10%, level 2 gives 20% and not 10% + 10% of 110%), but harvest ressource module gives 15% based on actual stats, taking into account escavation upgrade.
- Waypoint sometimes won't work. Use the waypoint hotkey, and you can't click to set waypoint, it just doesn't work.
- Energy consumption/generation. Impossible to know how much energy a ship produces or how much a wepon/shield will use (low, high, very high isn't precise enough)
- Hard to know into which ship it is possible for ressource collector to salvage
- Ship stats takes forever to appear/get updated when clicking on a unit
- Research and xp detailed tab don't add up to total xp and reserach tab (same as ressource)

- Can't retire a container after it has been given to a teammate

- Hyperspace sometimes doesn't work. You select units, click on hyperspace, select a destination, have enough res, and when you click to use the hyperspace, the cursor disappear and nothing happens.

- Sometimes ressource collector get hit, but don't lose any hp. (not known if limited to collector).

- Voices stop working. Very annoying when you can't hear "frigate being boarded" for example

- When using salvage asset on vaygr/hiigaran collector, disabling it rarely removes the malus and bonus that are applied. You need to enable/diable it until it works. This become a nightmare if you have a group of them and you are trying to chase down which are enabled/disabled and on which the bug occured. It's not possible to select a group and just enable/disable it because it won't have worked for most of the collectors




Overall dumbness, inefficiency and inability for ships to follow orders.

- Carriers will never move if they are given an attack order but are out of range
- Carriers won't shoot while moving (probably linked)

- some ship won't fire while moving even tho ennemies are in range (most obvious with corvettes, also fighters who could shoot but are just doing a move order)

- Putting ship into formation can make them move away from engagement just so they can position themselves into formation, instead of moving while shooting

- Ships with multipe guns won't place themselves so all guns will shoot the intended target. Taiidan assault frigate for example, I have seen them use only 2 kinetic turrets to shoot the ordered target, while the other 2 were used to shoot something else. It just did not realign with the target.

- HW1 corvettes act more like figthers instead of flying around their targets like HW2 corvettes while maxing shooting time. It makes them lose a lot of DPS.

- Shit just doesn't die. Interceptors are completly inefficient at killing other fighters. A squadron of 5 interceptors won't be able to kill a scout in 1 or 2 passages. Killing ressource collectors is just too hard as you will need 15/20 interceptors with upgrades to even dream of killing 1 in 2 passages. The best harrass strategy I found was kamikazing scouts into ressource collectors. Easiest, fastest and least risky way to kill ressource collectors. You even gain kill xp for it and the ennemy doesn't get anything.

- Small units (fighers/corvettes) are useless against other small units (fighters/corvettes), even if this is their designated role. HW1 races have to use defender to really use the ships to their full potential. Put interceptors in a wall/sphere with a defender, and they won't move and actually shoot stuff. Same for corvettes that prefer to roam around instead of shooting with their rotative turrets. HW2 interceptors can't do that. Interceptors are in the end better against corvettes/frigates because they are larger and easier to hit, and useless against capital ships because their regen will just out heal the DPS.

- Overall anti fighters stuff is just bad at killing fighers. The flak guns on captial ship does no damage, interceptors don't do shit unless they are following ennemy fighters going straight, anti fighter corvettes misses their shots (even on immobile defenders). Only defenders and interceptors in formation with defenders will be able to cut through fighters. This makes bomber a real threat as you will never kill them before they do damage, even if you have all the "logical" tech to counter them, except for the defender/interceptor death ball. Trying to get ride of a defender/interceptor death ball with anything else than a defender/interceptor death ball has proven to be nothing else but suicide (even max pop multigun corvettes with better upgrades loses badly).

- Collectors docking for res is stupid. Often they will pick a ship far away to drop off even tho there is one available next to them. It is worst for salvaging. All collectors pick the same ship to dock to salvage, resulting in a queue of lot of salvaging collectors waiting to get into one ship while you have 2/3/4 where they could dock next to it.

- Command corvette boost damage. How much ? what range ? Does it stack ?

- pulsar fighters from hiigaran completly MISS 90%+ shots on taiidan cruiser (other cruisers/big ships not tested)




- balance

Balance is all over the place. I really don't understand the tought process behind it. All races have similar stuff (like interceptors will cost the same and have same stats), with a few differences the more the game progresses (mostly frigate/capital). But they all get ressources at a very different rate. How does this work ? It seems evident that spending the same res for the same unit but getting res at different rate will make things imbalance. Am I missing something ?

Here is a test I did. On the first map, arcade high, by using only the first res spot (9 slots for collectors). I tried to reach excavation lvl 10 asap with the build order that seemed to be the best, and note when it happens and how much res was harvested. This is on fast game speed because of the bug :


hiagaran

mothership harvest + research module
reach 9 ressource collector
excavation lvl 1 + 2
4 scavenger + harvest
excavation lvl 10

lvl 10 ends at 14:21 res 72000


taiidan

mothership harvest
reach 9 ressource collector
1 carrier + harvest
1 research ship
excavation lvl 1 + 2
1 carrier + harvest
excavation lvl 10 (one controller during upgrade)

14:21 1/3 of lvl 9 and 42000 res
17:08 lvl 10 and 60000 res



kushan

(I don't remember the build order, can probably be optimiezd but not by much)

14:21 1/3 de lvl 9 and 35000 res (more or less)
17:53 lvl 10 and 52000 res


vaygr:

Same build order as hiigaran

mothership harvest + research module
reach 9 ressource collector
excavation lvl 1 + 2
4 services depot + harvest
excavation lvl 10

lvl 10 ends at 14:06 res 65000

So it is closer to hiigaran.





There are 3 main differences, the excavation upgrade, the harvest control module and the ressource collector.

The hiigaran and vaygr have access to easy 5 harvest module. 1 on mother ship and 4 on scavangers/service depots, and they can get them very fast.
Their ressource collectors are fast.
Their excavation upgrade gives 20%.

Here is some number for excavation rate and cargo capacity for hiigaran :

1.3 300 lvl 0 0 harvest module
1.5 345 lvl 0 1 harvest module +15% (+45)

1.6 360 lvl 1 0 harvest module +20% from lvl 0 (+60)
1.8 413 lvl 1 1 harvest module +15% (+53)

1.9 420 lvl 2 0 harvest module +40% from lvl 0 (+60), +16.6% from lvl 1 (+60)
2.1 482 lvl 2 1 harvest module +15% (+62)

2.1 480 lvl 3 0 harvest module +60% from lvl 0, +14.3% from lvl 2 (+60)
2.5 552 lvl 3 1 harvest module +15% (+72)

4 900 lvl 10 0 harvest module +200% from lvl 0
4.6 1035 lvl 10 1 harvest module +15% (+135)
5.2 1169 lvl 10 2 harvest module +15%
5.8 1304 lvl 10 3 harvest module +15%
6.4 1439 lvl 10 4 harvest module +15%
7 1574 lvl 10 5 harvest module +15%

For vaygr :

2.2 200 lvl 0 0 harvest module
2.5 229 lvl 0 1 harvest module +15% (+30)

2.4 220 lvl 1 0 harvest module +20% from lvl 0 (+20)
2.7 253 lvl 1 1 harvest module +15% (+33)

4.3 400 lvl 10 0 harvest module +200% from lvl 0
lvl 10 1 harvest module +15% (+60)
lvl 10 2 harvest module +15%
lvl 10 3 harvest module +15%
lvl 10 4 harvest module +15%
7.6 699 lvl 10 5 harvest module +15%




The taiidaan have access to harvest module on the mothership, carriers and utility ship. They can get some fast with carriers but not with utility ship as it requires research ship lvl 1 and hyperspace module. Carriers cost more than scavanger and you can only get 2. Also this prevents you from pushing with a carrier if you want to use the harvest module.
The collector ship are slow as ...., the contoller doesn't add a real bonus compared to the scavanger that has a harvest module.
Excavation research gives 10%.
Using harvest module on carriers makes it impossible to have enough module to get research for speed/dmg/hp for ships and still get hypersapce module etc... on mothership.
Ressources controller count as utility ships population, they can't dock ressource collectors for salvaging (as far as I know). To add to the rest, Kushan controller also only has 1 ressource drop off spot.

Here is some number for excavation rate and cargo capacity :

1.4 575 lvl 0 0 harvest module
1.6 661 lvl 0 1 harvest module +15% (+86.25)

1.5 632 lvl 1 0 harvest module +10% from lvl 0 (+60)
1.8 727 lvl 1 1 harvest module +15% (+95)

1.7 690 lvl 2 0 harvest module +20% from lvl 0 (+115), +9.1% from lvl 1 (+5Cool
1.9 793 lvl 2 1 harvest module +15% (+103)

1.8 747 lvl 3 0 harvest module +30% from lvl 0 (+172), +8.2% from lvl 2 (+57)
2.1 859 lvl 3 1 harvest module +15% (+112)

2.8 1150 lvl 10 0 harvest module +100% from lvl 0
3.2 1322 lvl 10 1 harvest module +15% (+172.5)
3.6 1494 lvl 10 2 harvest module +15% (+172.5)
4.1 1667 lvl 10 3 harvest module +15% (+172.5)
4.5 1839 lvl 10 4 harvest module +15% (+172.5)
4.9 2012 lvl 10 5 harvest module +15% (+172.5)


The difference is HUGE.

7 1574 to 4.9 2012 with same tech. And the tech is easier to get for hiigaran

The kushan can only build one harvest module, on the scaffold, which is slow as .... to get into position, and can be hard to position correctly to get full asteroid patch into the harvest module. Especially if you place a controller on the other side. Changing ressource spot with it is also terrible because you need to hyperspace and replace it again.
It is even worse than taiidan.

I believe the numbers are the same as for taiidan.


Vaygr are closer to hiigaran.



I believe turanic raiders are kind of in alpha/beta still? +30% upgrades for the same price as other races lol. I don't count them.


Fusion is useless. It takes forever to pay for itself. Hard to determine exactly how long it takes since you can't trust the ressource tab or the xRU/s information. Considering the cost of it, I don't think it is ever worth it. The initial 3000 cost gives 7RU/s, the first 10% upgrades cost 1000 and gives 0.7RU/s (if the tooltip is to be believed), making it even worse in term of return on invesment, being even worse with subsequent upgrade.
I haven't tested mining base or debris so much, but I believe it is the same. Very hard to actually have any impact with it compared to harvesting.



I could see how to balance this if harassing/pushing was a solution to prevent the booming of the faster races (like the zergs in SC2 for example), but considering the map distances, the complete inefficiency of interceptors/scout to kill stuff (including ressource collector), and the cost to actually do some damage (research to get population, build ships, get drive/fire/defense module, get research for the units, travelling to the other side of the map), the inefficiency of salvaging stuff because its slow af and you need to also invest res for it (collectors + a ship to dock), staying defensive and getting units/research when the opponents get here is just going to be better.


Some maps also appear to be imbalanced. A player can start with a 64000 res asteroid next to his base while the other player has it in a nebula.

The researchs also seems to be arbitrary. +10% for everything. Is it necessary to get 10 upgrades for +100% sensor range ?. Why would I ever pay 1000+2000+3000+4000+5000+6000+7000+8000+9000+10000 (55000res) for a sensor upgrade ?

The hyperspace research reduces the cost of hypserspace. What it actually does is something like reducing the cost by distance to hypserspace. The max cost isn't reduced, making it mostly useless, as you will TP at max cost distance most of the time. From testing it also doesn't impact the cost to hyperspace throught hyperspace gates (tested on hiigaran).


I will stop here for balance because I think all the bugs/problems and differences in res between races do get in the way of proper game balance. Especially since you HAVE to play on fast. I don't even know for which settings the mod is actually designed to be balance around.

no TL;DR

thanks.
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Jelrak

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canada
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:28 am    Post subject:  Re: Complex 13.4 feedback
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This is a nicely detailed post. Your feedback is very well laid out and clear. I am not on the Complex team, but I can answer at least a few of these concerns from my own experience.

king_yo wrote:


Game breaking bugs/exploits :

- Access violation


This is usually something Steam related due to a corrupted update.

king_yo wrote:

- out of sync

- ships killing themselves on rocks (collector/controller) or on capital ships (fighters/corvettes) (I have even seen interceptors kill themselvs on a ressource collector...), Salvage corvettes crashing themselves when going for an attack, or when already attacking and getting an move order.

Ships crashing into other ships during an attack can be caused by poor attack scripts being used, but crashing into rocks is typically a game engine problem.

king_yo wrote:

- ships stucking themselves into each other. Happens out of dock when something prevent them from moving. For example, if a contoller is in front of an ressource rock, the collector will get out of the ressource drop off area, and stay there because the rock blocks them. The next collector will do the same thing, and they will be stuck into each other.

Game engine problem

king_yo wrote:

- only one player will be affected by the game speed (slow/normal/fast), all the other will be on fast. I believe only the xp gain is correctly affected to everyone (not 100% sure). Which player is affected is a combination of player slot and race. If all player have the same race, the player with the smallest slot will have the set game speed (slot 1 player). If players have different races, a race take priority over the others. From my testing, taiidan was the race with the biggest priority. So for example, 4 players, 2 hiigaran (slot 1 and 2), 2 taiidan (slot 3 and 4), the taiidan with slot 3 will be the player with the correct game speed. All the other will be on fast.

- How to test this :
Set up what you want between race/slot and, at the start of the game, skip the intro and bluid a harvest control module.
Fast will be built at 0:42s
Normal will be built at 0:59s
Slow will be built at around 1:21/1:31s (not sure)
This bug basically forces you to play on fast, or add a bot to take the bad spot and at least have the xp on the set game speed. Not ideal.

This is very interesting to note. I am not sure what would be the cause of this.

king_yo wrote:

- Every ship's wreck on an squad will give a % of the squad price instead of the solo ship price. For example, a squad of bomber (1000res) will give 5*800 res in wreck to salvage.

- Ships produced to replace lost ship in a squad give production points.

- The last 2 points combined make for a huge exploit. Get a squadron, dock it. Scuttle it when one of the ship is docked. When the new squadron comes out (with the new ships, for free production points), scuttle it when all of the ships are out but the last one. Dock it again and repeat. You get infinite amount of production for free, + big wrecks to salvage.

- Similar exploit can be done with weapon slots. For example, on a mothership, do 1 kinetic turret (300) and copy it (500), then retire each kinetic turret (240*4=960 res). The costier the weapon slot is, the more res it will give.

- Squadron docking on ship that don't let them enter (for example support frigate from taiidan), will create bugged new ships. The free ships will be stucked inside the support unit.

- Ressource Collector ship being stucked. I have seen collector ships just stucked in front of a taiidan mothership drop off spot, with nothing around to block it. It was just being still, like if it was waiting his turn, but the slot was free.

All of these are likely game engine problems. I believe there have been some community patches that have attempted to address some of them, such as the squadron docking bug on the support frigates, but I do not know if Complex has implemented this into any of its subsequent updates.

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king_yo wrote:


- Overall inaccuracy/lack of information given on screen. You just can't trust the tooltips, you have to test everything yourself.
- I can never tell what is the hp of my ships. Between the life stat, the actual HP number when you hover the right tiny spot on the ship's stat, and the actual life bar being displayed, nothing makes sense. The numbers are all over the place, the life bar randomly jumps, the HP numbers jumps too.
- Differences in actual ressources gained and the details of the ressources gained tab. For about 1 point in fusion in the detailed ressource stats, you get about less than half of it in real res.
- Ressource drops from collector don't give what their cargo says can hold. (might be linked to the game speed bug)
- per second stats don't seem to be per second. See fusion for example, if it says 7/s, it won' give 7RU/s, either in the real res tab or detailed res tab, and whether you look at the ingame clock or count 1s irl.
- Hiigaran scavanger's fusion tooltip says 5-15 RU/s, actually give's 7RU/s (when selecting the unit).
- Hiigaran excavation tech give's 20% per level, tooltip says 10%.
- Excavation upgrade gives % based on base stats (lvl 1 gives 10%, level 2 gives 20% and not 10% + 10% of 110%), but harvest ressource module gives 15% based on actual stats, taking into account escavation upgrade.
- Waypoint sometimes won't work. Use the waypoint hotkey, and you can't click to set waypoint, it just doesn't work.
- Energy consumption/generation. Impossible to know how much energy a ship produces or how much a wepon/shield will use (low, high, very high isn't precise enough)
- Hard to know into which ship it is possible for ressource collector to salvage
- Ship stats takes forever to appear/get updated when clicking on a unit
- Research and xp detailed tab don't add up to total xp and reserach tab (same as ressource)

- Can't retire a container after it has been given to a teammate

- Hyperspace sometimes doesn't work. You select units, click on hyperspace, select a destination, have enough res, and when you click to use the hyperspace, the cursor disappear and nothing happens.

- Sometimes ressource collector get hit, but don't lose any hp. (not known if limited to collector).

- Voices stop working. Very annoying when you can't hear "frigate being boarded" for example

Voices not working is a game engine problem.

king_yo wrote:


- When using salvage asset on vaygr/hiigaran collector, disabling it rarely removes the malus and bonus that are applied. You need to enable/diable it until it works. This become a nightmare if you have a group of them and you are trying to chase down which are enabled/disabled and on which the bug occured. It's not possible to select a group and just enable/disable it because it won't have worked for most of the collectors




Overall dumbness, inefficiency and inability for ships to follow orders.

- Carriers will never move if they are given an attack order but are out of range
- Carriers won't shoot while moving (probably linked)

Carrier attack scripts are probably using a "Just Shoot" type of command so that they will not consistently head towards battles, but will instead act in more of a defensive capacity. If you would prefer more of an offensive type of carrier you might wish to make such a variety and adjust its attack script to "move to target and shoot" instead.

king_yo wrote:


- some ship won't fire while moving even tho ennemies are in range (most obvious with corvettes, also fighters who could shoot but are just doing a move order)


- Putting ship into formation can make them move away from engagement just so they can position themselves into formation, instead of moving while shooting

- Ships with multipe guns won't place themselves so all guns will shoot the intended target. Taiidan assault frigate for example, I have seen them use only 2 kinetic turrets to shoot the ordered target, while the other 2 were used to shoot something else. It just did not realign with the target.

Some of these problems might be corrected in the player's patch.

king_yo wrote:


- HW1 corvettes act more like figthers instead of flying around their targets like HW2 corvettes while maxing shooting time. It makes them lose a lot of DPS.

- Shit just doesn't die. Interceptors are completly inefficient at killing other fighters. A squadron of 5 interceptors won't be able to kill a scout in 1 or 2 passages. Killing ressource collectors is just too hard as you will need 15/20 interceptors with upgrades to even dream of killing 1 in 2 passages. The best harrass strategy I found was kamikazing scouts into ressource collectors. Easiest, fastest and least risky way to kill ressource collectors. You even gain kill xp for it and the ennemy doesn't get anything.

- Small units (fighers/corvettes) are useless against other small units (fighters/corvettes), even if this is their designated role. HW1 races have to use defender to really use the ships to their full potential. Put interceptors in a wall/sphere with a defender, and they won't move and actually shoot stuff. Same for corvettes that prefer to roam around instead of shooting with their rotative turrets. HW2 interceptors can't do that. Interceptors are in the end better against corvettes/frigates because they are larger and easier to hit, and useless against capital ships because their regen will just out heal the DPS.

- Overall anti fighters stuff is just bad at killing fighers. The flak guns on captial ship does no damage, interceptors don't do shit unless they are following ennemy fighters going straight, anti fighter corvettes misses their shots (even on immobile defenders). Only defenders and interceptors in formation with defenders will be able to cut through fighters. This makes bomber a real threat as you will never kill them before they do damage, even if you have all the "logical" tech to counter them, except for the defender/interceptor death ball. Trying to get ride of a defender/interceptor death ball with anything else than a defender/interceptor death ball has proven to be nothing else but suicide (even max pop multigun corvettes with better upgrades loses badly).

- Collectors docking for res is stupid. Often they will pick a ship far away to drop off even tho there is one available next to them. It is worst for salvaging. All collectors pick the same ship to dock to salvage, resulting in a queue of lot of salvaging collectors waiting to get into one ship while you have 2/3/4 where they could dock next to it.

- Command corvette boost damage. How much ? what range ? Does it stack ?

Command corvette values appear to stack

king_yo wrote:

- pulsar fighters from hiigaran completly MISS 90%+ shots on taiidan cruiser (other cruisers/big ships not tested)


- balance

Balance is all over the place. I really don't understand the tought process behind it. All races have similar stuff (like interceptors will cost the same and have same stats), with a few differences the more the game progresses (mostly frigate/capital). But they all get ressources at a very different rate. How does this work ? It seems evident that spending the same res for the same unit but getting res at different rate will make things imbalance. Am I missing something ?

Here is a test I did. On the first map, arcade high, by using only the first res spot (9 slots for collectors). I tried to reach excavation lvl 10 asap with the build order that seemed to be the best, and note when it happens and how much res was harvested. This is on fast game speed because of the bug :


hiagaran

mothership harvest + research module
reach 9 ressource collector
excavation lvl 1 + 2
4 scavenger + harvest
excavation lvl 10

lvl 10 ends at 14:21 res 72000


taiidan

mothership harvest
reach 9 ressource collector
1 carrier + harvest
1 research ship
excavation lvl 1 + 2
1 carrier + harvest
excavation lvl 10 (one controller during upgrade)

14:21 1/3 of lvl 9 and 42000 res
17:08 lvl 10 and 60000 res



kushan

(I don't remember the build order, can probably be optimiezd but not by much)

14:21 1/3 de lvl 9 and 35000 res (more or less)
17:53 lvl 10 and 52000 res


vaygr:

Same build order as hiigaran

mothership harvest + research module
reach 9 ressource collector
excavation lvl 1 + 2
4 services depot + harvest
excavation lvl 10

lvl 10 ends at 14:06 res 65000

So it is closer to hiigaran.





There are 3 main differences, the excavation upgrade, the harvest control module and the ressource collector.

The hiigaran and vaygr have access to easy 5 harvest module. 1 on mother ship and 4 on scavangers/service depots, and they can get them very fast.
Their ressource collectors are fast.
Their excavation upgrade gives 20%.

Here is some number for excavation rate and cargo capacity for hiigaran :

1.3 300 lvl 0 0 harvest module
1.5 345 lvl 0 1 harvest module +15% (+45)

1.6 360 lvl 1 0 harvest module +20% from lvl 0 (+60)
1.8 413 lvl 1 1 harvest module +15% (+53)

1.9 420 lvl 2 0 harvest module +40% from lvl 0 (+60), +16.6% from lvl 1 (+60)
2.1 482 lvl 2 1 harvest module +15% (+62)

2.1 480 lvl 3 0 harvest module +60% from lvl 0, +14.3% from lvl 2 (+60)
2.5 552 lvl 3 1 harvest module +15% (+72)

4 900 lvl 10 0 harvest module +200% from lvl 0
4.6 1035 lvl 10 1 harvest module +15% (+135)
5.2 1169 lvl 10 2 harvest module +15%
5.8 1304 lvl 10 3 harvest module +15%
6.4 1439 lvl 10 4 harvest module +15%
7 1574 lvl 10 5 harvest module +15%

For vaygr :

2.2 200 lvl 0 0 harvest module
2.5 229 lvl 0 1 harvest module +15% (+30)

2.4 220 lvl 1 0 harvest module +20% from lvl 0 (+20)
2.7 253 lvl 1 1 harvest module +15% (+33)

4.3 400 lvl 10 0 harvest module +200% from lvl 0
lvl 10 1 harvest module +15% (+60)
lvl 10 2 harvest module +15%
lvl 10 3 harvest module +15%
lvl 10 4 harvest module +15%
7.6 699 lvl 10 5 harvest module +15%




The taiidaan have access to harvest module on the mothership, carriers and utility ship. They can get some fast with carriers but not with utility ship as it requires research ship lvl 1 and hyperspace module. Carriers cost more than scavanger and you can only get 2. Also this prevents you from pushing with a carrier if you want to use the harvest module.
The collector ship are slow as ...., the contoller doesn't add a real bonus compared to the scavanger that has a harvest module.
Excavation research gives 10%.
Using harvest module on carriers makes it impossible to have enough module to get research for speed/dmg/hp for ships and still get hypersapce module etc... on mothership.
Ressources controller count as utility ships population, they can't dock ressource collectors for salvaging (as far as I know). To add to the rest, Kushan controller also only has 1 ressource drop off spot.

Here is some number for excavation rate and cargo capacity :

1.4 575 lvl 0 0 harvest module
1.6 661 lvl 0 1 harvest module +15% (+86.25)

1.5 632 lvl 1 0 harvest module +10% from lvl 0 (+60)
1.8 727 lvl 1 1 harvest module +15% (+95)

1.7 690 lvl 2 0 harvest module +20% from lvl 0 (+115), +9.1% from lvl 1 (+58)
1.9 793 lvl 2 1 harvest module +15% (+103)

1.8 747 lvl 3 0 harvest module +30% from lvl 0 (+172), +8.2% from lvl 2 (+57)
2.1 859 lvl 3 1 harvest module +15% (+112)

2.8 1150 lvl 10 0 harvest module +100% from lvl 0
3.2 1322 lvl 10 1 harvest module +15% (+172.5)
3.6 1494 lvl 10 2 harvest module +15% (+172.5)
4.1 1667 lvl 10 3 harvest module +15% (+172.5)
4.5 1839 lvl 10 4 harvest module +15% (+172.5)
4.9 2012 lvl 10 5 harvest module +15% (+172.5)


The difference is HUGE.

7 1574 to 4.9 2012 with same tech. And the tech is easier to get for hiigaran

The kushan can only build one harvest module, on the scaffold, which is slow as .... to get into position, and can be hard to position correctly to get full asteroid patch into the harvest module. Especially if you place a controller on the other side. Changing ressource spot with it is also terrible because you need to hyperspace and replace it again.
It is even worse than taiidan.

I believe the numbers are the same as for taiidan.


Vaygr are closer to hiigaran.



I believe turanic raiders are kind of in alpha/beta still? +30% upgrades for the same price as other races lol. I don't count them.


Fusion is useless. It takes forever to pay for itself. Hard to determine exactly how long it takes since you can't trust the ressource tab or the xRU/s information. Considering the cost of it, I don't think it is ever worth it. The initial 3000 cost gives 7RU/s, the first 10% upgrades cost 1000 and gives 0.7RU/s (if the tooltip is to be believed), making it even worse in term of return on invesment, being even worse with subsequent upgrade.
I haven't tested mining base or debris so much, but I believe it is the same. Very hard to actually have any impact with it compared to harvesting.



I could see how to balance this if harassing/pushing was a solution to prevent the booming of the faster races (like the zergs in SC2 for example), but considering the map distances, the complete inefficiency of interceptors/scout to kill stuff (including ressource collector), and the cost to actually do some damage (research to get population, build ships, get drive/fire/defense module, get research for the units, travelling to the other side of the map), the inefficiency of salvaging stuff because its slow af and you need to also invest res for it (collectors + a ship to dock), staying defensive and getting units/research when the opponents get here is just going to be better.


Some maps also appear to be imbalanced. A player can start with a 64000 res asteroid next to his base while the other player has it in a nebula.

The researchs also seems to be arbitrary. +10% for everything. Is it necessary to get 10 upgrades for +100% sensor range ?. Why would I ever pay 1000+2000+3000+4000+5000+6000+7000+8000+9000+10000 (55000res) for a sensor upgrade ?

The hyperspace research reduces the cost of hypserspace. What it actually does is something like reducing the cost by distance to hypserspace. The max cost isn't reduced, making it mostly useless, as you will TP at max cost distance most of the time. From testing it also doesn't impact the cost to hyperspace throught hyperspace gates (tested on hiigaran).


I will stop here for balance because I think all the bugs/problems and differences in res between races do get in the way of proper game balance. Especially since you HAVE to play on fast. I don't even know for which settings the mod is actually designed to be balance around.

no TL;DR

thanks.


The remainder is largely mod-specific so I cannot accurately speak to it.
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king_yo

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france
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:16 pm    Post subject:  
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Thanks for your answer.
I suspected a lot of things came from HM:RM itself.

About access violation, I heard about some fixes but it seems nothing worked. We tried completlty reinstalling homeworld, create new profiles, deactivating steam cloud, redowloading the mod etc... It's still coming back randomly. The logs are not useful either.
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Jelrak

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canada
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:38 pm    Post subject:  
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Yes the access violation error is very difficult to trace due to its very general nature. The majority of successes in correcting it revolve around re-downloading and re-installing, but if you have attempted this and it is still unresolved then I am unsure as to what to further suggest. Sometimes the violation is thrown merely for a missing comma or bracket in a script file...something that would ordinarily be written up as an error in the HWRM.log if using -luatrace on the shortcut command line.

(hwrm.log is in the …HomeworldRM\bin\release folder.

For the shorcut, the simplest way is to go into Steam, right-click on your game, “Properties”, “Set Launch Options…”, and add -luatrace)

I did once read that there is a bug in the Steam downloader that will contribute to corrupted files if the downloader is...minimized? (or some other option is exercised on it) or something similar. Unfortunately I do not use Steam so I did not quite register what the exact problem was. I believe I read about it somewhere on the Gearbox forums. Perhaps verifying the integrity of your Steam files might help?

Access violations do not appear to occur with the GOG version as I believe this is strictly a Steam error.

I apologize if none of this is particularly helpful.
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mrkhor

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malaysia
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:04 pm    Post subject: Great ! Well done King_Yo.
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Dear King_Yo ! your findings are nicely done. you have covered all my issue findings with additional info and more details.

In effort to test run the game i have made a complex 13.4, 1 hiigara vs 7 vaygr gameplay video with my potato laptop...lol but the game seems working fine with no access violation so far for the race Hiigara.

Here is the gameplay link:

Only registered users can see links on this board!
Get registred or enter the forums!


Maybe it is time to play other race to find the access violation problem out.

Indeed, the stupid resource collectors are giving me hard time to gather debris resources and choose the far route to mothership and queue like a sitting duck waiting to be shut down.

I suggested to add a button to activate / deactivate ship resource port so that we can manage resourcing IF THE BUG could not be fixed.

The battle chatter sometimes do not work and ruined my gameplay, because could not get any clue from the unit reports/ respond.

since you have covered all my findings, i shall not repeating myself...lol
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