Homeworld 2 Complex Forum Index
 Portal •  Blog •  Album •  FAQ  •  Search  •  Memberlist  •  Usergroups   •  Calendar   •  Register  •  User Panel  •  Log in to check your private messages  •  Log in
  FlashChat  •  Statistics  •  Links  •   Downloads  •   Comments to your karma  •  Toplist  •  Guestbook  •  Recent topics  •  Voting forum
Amalgamating Complex 9.1 & Warlords 0.60
Users browsing this topic:0 Registered, 0 Hidden and 0 Guests
Registered Users: None

Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Homeworld 2 Complex Forum Index -> General
View previous topicEmail to a Friend.Users who have viewed this topicSave this topic as a txt filePrintable versionLog in to check your private messagesView next topic
Author Message
Jelrak

Commodore
Commodore




Gender: Gender:Male
Age: 42
Joined: 13 Jan 2016
Posts: 243
Jelrak is offline 







canada
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 2:21 am    Post subject:  Amalgamating Complex 9.1 & Warlords 0.60
Description: Let's see if I run into any major problems
Reply with quote

I currently find Complex to be so far my favorite mod...so much so that I simply cannot bring myself to fully commit to playing any other...

So my solution is to merge some of the other mods I have enjoyed in the past into this fine product.

I will be beginning with the marriage of Complex with Warlords...using the stability of Complex with all of its current functions and ships, while adding some or all of the ships and effects from Warlords. These may be included merely as a separate race(s), but I feel more inclined to provide them as alternative options on the research tree. In this way each game might have with it a different flavor as different styles of ships are researched...but balancing issues are going to be very interesting...

Ideally I would appreciate including the factories to build these specific ships as new subsystem platforms surrounding the MS, but we shall see how ambitious I will get. For now I have just finished amalgamating the weapons and ships, and will begin populating the already wonderfully full tech tree with even more branches...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ALC

Content Admin
Content Admin


Complex Team



Joined: 10 Sep 2008
Posts: 6917
ALC is offline 
Post Vote: User is appraised 5.00 out of 5
Location: Éireann • Ireland • Irlanti • Republika Irlandia





ireland
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 1:50 pm    Post subject:  
Description:
Reply with quote

I'd be happy to test that out—a Stardestroyer in Complex would be fun!
_________________
I'll have a Neutron Blaster please...
...No Neutron Blasters...
In that case I'll have a glove...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jelrak

Commodore
Commodore




Gender: Gender:Male
Age: 42
Joined: 13 Jan 2016
Posts: 243
Jelrak is offline 







canada
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 10:09 pm    Post subject:  
Description:
Reply with quote

Once I have things a bit more to my liking I will definitely let you do so ALC.

Right now it has just been interesting to see the interaction among the different ship styles...currently the Imperial forces are too powerful for the Vaygr because of their unique armour. I am currently working on fixing this.

I am also pondering the proper implementation of these ships. I would like them to work as seamlessly as possible with the rest of the Complex universe and so imagine them as different technological achievements arrived to allow for such different looks. For this reason they will not generally have Star Wars-like names, but will be assigned to different Homeworld races.

I would ideally like them to be made in either stationary or mobile factories that must choose to specialize in certain series or styles that would then lock out the other options (because otherwise some of us might be tempted to get carried away). I am trying to decide if simply designating specific carriers to do the job (and allowing each category of ships to be a subsystem) would work well enough.

So for example the Light Carrier could be able only to produce Fighters, but it could provide only 2 or 3 styles (there are currently 7 or 8 different styles).

The Regular Carrier could only make Corvettes, but again only a handful of styles, etc.

The Battle Carrier would be assigned the task of Frigates, etc.

The research tree would then provide the different chassis as desired, but at a lower research cost and time to allow that a specific factory (or factory ship) is also required, as well as a subsystem specific to that model.

The advantage of this is that the tools are already at hand to do this. It also better justifies each successive carrier as necessary for continued use as the game progresses.

The disadvantage is that some of the current strategy and purpose of existing carriers will get altered...and I had not wished to alter much of the current dynamic, but more just add to what was already in play...

Alternately it might be better to make the factories stationary. This would result in a more centralized economy with fixed targets to shut down the enemy's ability to build...but it would also require either making new factory-type buildings or somehow modify existing platforms to serve the same role (eg. the crew platform could act as a fighter factory). Certainly I could make use of the existing ones provided in Warlords, but these do not strike me as particularly compatible with Complex visuals for some reason. Possibly a solution would be to build different types of Shipyards since that is basically what those are for, but they seem somewhat large for mere fighters and corvettes...they also take up a fair bit of space.

As I have exactly zero interest and talent in creating new art it will be one of these options (or a combination most likely).

Currently I am leaning towards modifying the Light, Regular, Fleet, and Battle Carriers to mfg Fighters, Corvettes, Heavy Corvettes and Frigates respectively, while changing the Shipyard, Battle Shipyard, and Command Shipyards to make Destroyers, Cruisers, and Battle Cruisers.

What I would like to encourage is a wave of specialization...so that a player might conceivably have a purpose for everything in play.

We shall see what happens...

I like to imagine Complex evolving to something of a space economy that has to protect its industries in order to continue to build and maintain its fleet. A game for both the offensive and defensive player...

Well back to work...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ALC

Content Admin
Content Admin


Complex Team



Joined: 10 Sep 2008
Posts: 6917
ALC is offline 
Post Vote: User is appraised 5.00 out of 5
Location: Éireann • Ireland • Irlanti • Republika Irlandia





ireland
PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2016 11:13 pm    Post subject:  
Description:
Reply with quote

I think stationary factories would be better. You could then use shipyards for them, and lock out various functions using subsystems: either have only one subsystem slot per shipyard, or have a build subsystem that takes up more than one slot, for example.

Myself, I always aim for that fleet of Stradestroyers Very Happy

_________________
I'll have a Neutron Blaster please...
...No Neutron Blasters...
In that case I'll have a glove...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jelrak

Commodore
Commodore




Gender: Gender:Male
Age: 42
Joined: 13 Jan 2016
Posts: 243
Jelrak is offline 







canada
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 9:48 am    Post subject:  
Description:
Reply with quote

I have been making progress in this project and have been fairly pleased with the results.

Here are the changes so far:

1) An option allows the player to join one of either 4 good empires, 4 neutral, or 4 evil empires through an optional embassies research option.
b) Only a single empire may be joined as allies are mutually exclusive.
c) Allies require no crew, cost less to build, but have higher maintenance costs, longer build times, and lower production cap values.
d) They also require a minimum honour rating to access...
e) A single, non-moveable, production factory building is buildable for each range of ships.
f) Building a frigate production facility prior to researching embassies will block access to the alliance research since the idea is to offer either an option to prolong the game or to simply get on with the task of chasing bigger-better-faster...

2) There are now minimum classes of ships that larger ships are able to attack and maximum classes that smaller ships can attack. This leaves a lot more usefulness for frigates (as they reside neatly in the middle) and allows each ship class to be potentially necessary right to the end. Ships are now divided into 25 classes.

3) Each alliance choice allows access to 3 mercenary groups (out of a global total of 21).
b) Mercenaries are either initial squads of multiple small ships or single ships if larger. They cost more than average both to build and to maintain, but require very low build time and do not take up crew.
c) Mercenary ships are unique and once destroyed cannot be rebuilt.

4) Hiring mercenaries before building the Corvette Facility will provide access to one of 3 types of robotic drone fleets.
b) Drones are faster and more accurate than fighters, but have weaker armor.
c) Drones do not count against crew levels, cost less to build, have lower maintenance, are available in high numbers, but use a slight amount of power and are only effective against Drones, Fighters, Bombers, Missiles, Platforms, Scouts, and Corvettes.

5) Scouts are now the only ship type able to target probes...given they are likely the only ship with equipment sensitive enough to find them.

6) Stations will no longer be capable of hyperspace travel once built--with the exception of the Chimera station.

More to come...!

Note: I will be requiring permission from the authors of Complex, Warlords, FX, Babylon 5, STC, BG, Yaodu, ITOG, Homefront, AFF, Freespace, Stargate, etc. before being able to release this mod on the world at large...I make no attempt to disguise the fact that I have *borrowed* liberally from these and others... Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ALC

Content Admin
Content Admin


Complex Team



Joined: 10 Sep 2008
Posts: 6917
ALC is offline 
Post Vote: User is appraised 5.00 out of 5
Location: Éireann • Ireland • Irlanti • Republika Irlandia





ireland
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:45 pm    Post subject:  
Description:
Reply with quote

Good work there! Smile

In terms of balance, have you used Complex as the base, or Warlords. My impression of Warlords was that it still needed balancing—I found it quite dull to play, too easy to win. There were other issues also.

On releasing your mod, the mod community generally allows cross-pollination of mods provided that everyone gets due credit, so I think you should receive a positive response there.

_________________
I'll have a Neutron Blaster please...
...No Neutron Blasters...
In that case I'll have a glove...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jelrak

Commodore
Commodore




Gender: Gender:Male
Age: 42
Joined: 13 Jan 2016
Posts: 243
Jelrak is offline 







canada
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2016 7:58 pm    Post subject:  
Description:
Reply with quote

Thank you...!

I am using Complex for the base for the very reasons you have stated. Each ship imported is being rewritten to allow for this. Native ships are also being modified to allow for the greater range of armour present on Warlords ships.

The main adjustments I am making to balancing is simply the limitations mentioned above to help stave off the seeming inevitable drive to produce the largest ship possible from the outset. In this mod there will be a strategic reward for delaying such activity by allowing access to the alternate shipyards.

A few other minor changes in the works:

1) Scouts will be reduced to single ships rather than squads of 3
2) Allied fighters will be squads of 3
3) Native fighters will remain squads of 5
4) Mercenaries will vary
5) Drones will be in squads of 7 - 10
6) In the later game some frigates will be in squads of 3
7) Platforms will not require crew, but will also no longer be able to move after being initially set

I hope the others will be as willing to allow me to play with their toys as you suggest... Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jelrak

Commodore
Commodore




Gender: Gender:Male
Age: 42
Joined: 13 Jan 2016
Posts: 243
Jelrak is offline 







canada
PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2016 11:36 pm    Post subject:  
Description:
Reply with quote

Some additional updates:

1) Sentinels will be more automated and so require only a single crew member.
a) I have left the ability for them to move at a slow speed.
2) Battle Arks can now build additional Flagships (usually Motherships), however:
a) The max total number of Flagships is 5
b) Duplicate Flagships are not allowed
c) Must have joined an alliance, negotiated a mercenary contract, or developed a drone factory to be able to build the associated Flagship.
3) Adjusted restrictions so that player must not build a corvette facility before joining an alliance.
4) Adjusted restrictions so that player must not build a frigate facility before developing a drone factory.

The following hierarchies are in place:
1) Join Republic-->Access to Rebel Or Terran Mercenaries-->Access to AISN Drone Factory
2) Join the Empire-->Access to Shinra Mercenaries-->Access to CIS Drone Factory

Balancing the different ships is so far taking up the most time...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ALC

Content Admin
Content Admin


Complex Team



Joined: 10 Sep 2008
Posts: 6917
ALC is offline 
Post Vote: User is appraised 5.00 out of 5
Location: Éireann • Ireland • Irlanti • Republika Irlandia





ireland
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2016 12:14 am    Post subject:  
Description:
Reply with quote

...time well spent, as balance is a crucial part.
_________________
I'll have a Neutron Blaster please...
...No Neutron Blasters...
In that case I'll have a glove...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
lazer72

Commodore
Commodore




Gender: Gender:Male
Age: 21
Joined: 29 Apr 2012
Posts: 312
lazer72 is offline 


Interests: Complex (obviously), audiophile, Technology, Space, Chocolate Bars, RC Helicopters




uk
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2016 10:40 pm    Post subject:  
Description:
Reply with quote

Well this looks promising
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jelrak

Commodore
Commodore




Gender: Gender:Male
Age: 42
Joined: 13 Jan 2016
Posts: 243
Jelrak is offline 







canada
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2016 12:33 am    Post subject:  
Description:
Reply with quote

v 0.03
1) Light Carriers can now only produce Fighters & Probes
2) Regular Carriers can no longer build stations
3) Fleet Carriers can now build stations
4) Chimera Station can now also build, dock, and hold collectors, controllers, and platforms
5) The Weapon Station can also build Patcher Drones with the appropriate tech upgrade and can dock and hold fighters
6) Shinra fighters have 9 to a squad, but only 1 squad of each type can be built
7) Civilian Station can now build Trade Convoys, Crew Cells, and will be able to build a civilian research station.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jelrak

Commodore
Commodore




Gender: Gender:Male
Age: 42
Joined: 13 Jan 2016
Posts: 243
Jelrak is offline 







canada
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2016 9:19 am    Post subject:  
Description:
Reply with quote

v 0.04
1) Command Fortresses can no longer self-replicate.
b) Battle Arks are now the only ship able to make Command Fortresses
c) Command Fortresses can no longer use hyper-space.
2) Added Hiigaran Hyperspace Gate Platform
a) Hyperspace Platforms and Chimera Stations are the only means of transporting ships through hyperspace that do not have a hyperspace module onboard.
b) Ships will no longer be able to hyperspace one another with the exception of the Fleet Carrier
c) This is to improve tactics by making the slower speeds of large ships meaningful and to modulate the temptation to jump large ships in and out of battles.
d) The goal is to encourage the use of carriers as the main jumping ships in order to stengthen their purpose.
3) Frigates are now built in squadrons of 2 with the exception of the Defense Field Frigate
4) Platforms can now only move once and then cannot move again. They retain their original crew size.
5) Sentinels are now designated as small, stationary drone-type defense platforms.
6) Emplacements are now designated as large, station-sized defense platforms.
b) Emplacements are only available with an Alliance, and Drone research, but cannot be researched if Destroyer Chassis Tech is already known
c) Emplacements can only be manufactured on Battle Arks
7) Patcher & Defender Drones now require Drone Production research
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jelrak

Commodore
Commodore




Gender: Gender:Male
Age: 42
Joined: 13 Jan 2016
Posts: 243
Jelrak is offline 







canada
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2016 12:34 am    Post subject:  
Description:
Reply with quote

V 0.05
1) Shuttles now manufacture Sentinels and Platforms
2) Sentinel Production requires Advanced Robotics, which requires Drone Production Technology and an Alliance with the Republic, but cannot be researched if Battleship Chassis has already been researched
3) Emplacements are only available with an Empire Alliance, and Drone Production, but cannot be researched if Battleship Chassis has already been researched
4) Light Shuttle is now a drone production ship. It requires Drone Production research
5) Juggernauts are now large drone ships. They require Drone Production research.
6) Patcher Drones are now in squadrons of 3
7) Hiigaran Ship Updates Complete
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jelrak

Commodore
Commodore




Gender: Gender:Male
Age: 42
Joined: 13 Jan 2016
Posts: 243
Jelrak is offline 







canada
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 1:42 am    Post subject:  
Description:
Reply with quote

As anticipated, balancing these two mods has been quite a challenge.

Current progress:
1) Armour Penetration

Designing an algorithm to blend the two disparate armour lists is nearing completion.

As Warlords contains 22 different armour families (plus an additional 16 shield classes that thankfully do not appear to be in use), compared to less than half that many for Complex, allowing consistent behavior from both weapons systems is a fairly lengthy process. Even using a formulaic approach, it must yet allow sufficient flexibility to provide for weapons specifically designed against given armour types to work as intended.

The necessary result is that one must clearly adopt the standards of the other. As Warlords has a greater range of potential flexibility I will have Complex assume its armour classes. Obviously this will be a lengthy process that will require thoughtful changes to each weapon currently in use (of which there are between 250 - 600 depending on the number of discovered duplicate effects).

2) Weapon Accuracy

Here is a bit of a difficulty as I was hoping to create a precise ratio between the size of the ship shooting versus the size of the ship being shot. Each step away from parity should yield a corresponding increase/decrease in accuracy.

The issue with this is, naturally enough, each weapon is not necessarily exclusive to each ship size and the accuracy rating appears to be inscribed in the weapon file rather than in the ship file. The question at present is if there is a potential override in the ship file that I have overlooked? If so this would certainly make things much simpler. If not, I will potentially need to have multiple weapon files of the same type, but reserved for the use of different ship classes...

3) Attack defaults.

Currently Warlords and Complex have slightly different ship families. As a result I have blended the two into 33 distinct classes that appear to account for every possibility. This shall have consequences to attack patterns so it shall take some time to adjust these values as well as to properly arrange the priority lists.

Yet this is fairly formulaic so I do not anticipate much difficulty.

4) Unit balancing.

I have a very comprehensive table to assist with cost, mfg time, health, and speed balancing so this should be fairly straight-forward. I will be saving this for last as it will be the easiest and most interesting.

5) AI

Writing the script for the AI should be an interesting task. It will take some time to fill out, but it will be a rewarding enough process.

6) Other races.

Currently I have put the majority of effort into ensuring the Hiigarans have a lot of sideways motion in this game to avoid the somewhat repetitive necessity to always build better-stronger-faster before one's opponent performs likewise. Instead I have offered powerful defensive systems to buy time to explore the incredible array of new ships now available.

One consequence of this is that the Vaygr are, and will likely always be, lacking the same scope of options. So as I see it there are currently 3 options available to solve this problem:

Most Balanced Option
1) Eliminate the Vaygr as a playable race and have them merely a faction option of the Hiigaran.
a) This would allow captured ships to perform all normal functions (eg. gaining access to a Vaygr shipyard would allow the player to now build those ships).
b) Less duplication in the files
c) Much, much, much easier balancing as tactics chosen by the player would have a true and real range of options for countering. Currently the greatest potential for upset in this mod is the ability for one player to build into the SSDs and mop up the Vaygr at some point. The solutions thus far have been to price them beyond range and to provide the Vaygr with superior numbers (or as a potential wave of reinforcements when the technology comes available).

Most Interesting Option
2) Eliminate all player races
a) In this scenario the players each begin with a Tannis-level shipyard and must make a one-time choice of the flagship they would like to use for the remainder of the game. No other flagships will be allowed to be built (until the Battle Ark comes into play, perhaps?).
b) This is currently very interesting as a concept, though it does pose some challenges of its own vis-a-vis the tech tree. For the player would still essentially be Hiigaran, but merely robbed of all Hiigaran normal roads of progress. The tech tree would require a great deal of modifying to allow for all of the alternative paths (which would be interesting to do, but take an extensive amount of time).

Most Pragmatic Option
3) Leave Vaygr as the second race, but provide it with increasing waves of reinforcements potentially triggered at certain tech levels.
a) This has the advantage of being potentially the simplest option, but it also seems as though it would be the least interesting.

Before I engage in a wholesale changing of the weapons and ships files it would be incredibly important to have made a decision on the above. Currently I am leaning towards either option 1 or 2, but am open to suggestions...


At any rate once these very arduous parts are complete I anticipate this mod will be able to absorb nearly any other ship from any other mod with a minimal amount of difficulty given that the tools and processes will be in place.

We shall see how long this takes...!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jelrak

Commodore
Commodore




Gender: Gender:Male
Age: 42
Joined: 13 Jan 2016
Posts: 243
Jelrak is offline 







canada
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 9:03 am    Post subject:  
Description:
Reply with quote

1) Penetration Algorithm complete
2) Accuracy Algorithm complete
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Homeworld 2 Complex Forum Index -> General All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
Page 1 of 10

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum





Homeworld 2 Complex topic RSS feed 
Powered by MasterTopForum Premium with phpBB © 2003 - 2009