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Complex 12 feedback
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MWLL_Vlaad

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:12 pm    Post subject:  Complex 12 feedback
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Hi, long time follower here roughly since first complex.

Being that this is project based on passion and personal vision, I refrained from leaving feedback for earlier versions of complex as well as criticizing it too much as more than a few things rubbed me the wrong way.

For start, I have to say the you have my honest admiration for doing all this and keeping this mod alive. Awesome job!

From my subjective standpoint, I love this (RM) version of complex much more than old complex. Fleets are most certainly smaller, micromanaging comes more into play here and outcome is less focused on brute force and more on positioning... Until certain point.

However, it leaves much more to be desired, both from balance and technical standpoint.

I will announce, I never was a fan of juggernaut, weapon system such as mines and nuclear missiles, as well as uber-motherships.

Let me elaborate it a bit:

Jugger:

Destroyer class suicidal vessel with huge damage potential can under circumstances eliminate or heavily damage entire fleets. Add ability to hyperspace and things can spiral out of control really fast. Thematically, it never felt "higi".

Nuclear bombs and mines:

It is treated as a missile but is much larger (and slower) than a corvette. Damage potential is insane, it one shots destroyers (case with nuclear bombs). Brushing aside what it is, it has insane range and to top it off, it is buildable on destroyers. It flat out replaces some cannon systems. For example, in HW and HW2 universe entire ship is built around a weapon system (Vaygr BC) and here, we have an uption to outdamage/outrange its enture weapon system with a single buildable turret. To be clear, potential to one shot super capital and fired from a destroyer platform seems a bit broken. Visually, destroyer firing those looks a bit silly as each round is nearly 10% of its size. Granted, microing is one way but it gets really annoying really fast for something that can be produced on mass.

There are defenses against such weapons but its broken from technical side. Its not possible to manually target (even if it was, its not practical from gameplay standpoint) so ship will not fire at the missile unless its "locked on" to some target. When it does fire, it interrupts current order of given ship: For example, BC mounted fast laser turret will destroy the missile however, it will also cancel the current order. More often than not, it works to disadvantage. Here is a quick scenario:

BC starts shooting at the target (ion cannons) and opposing ship gives birth to a nuke. When in range of fast tracking turrets, shop will shoot down the missile but it will lose "tracking" of the target and not deal damage with its volley.

Since it IS a core design of the game I would propose to either allow those large weapons to be manually targeted/destroyable by anti fighter/corvette weapons.

Biggest gripe I have is in form of defense fields... for me, they are flat out game breaking: They are based on (variable) duration, not hit points and absorb nearly everything. Entire fleet of fully upgraded capital ships (4 destroyers, 3 cruisers, roughly 6-8 missile frigates), vaygr station and "uber cannon" on flagship could not kill one of those in timely manner. same fleet vapourised opposing "unshielded fleet". When in hands of a player... Silly things happen... 3 upgrades is enough to micro 2 frigates and shield entire fleet to the point where 3 BC's cant scratch paint from a destroyer.

Next, allowing those on motherships is plain silly... I was playing with a friend against 3 brutal CPU (higarans). On our first offensive, we each had 2 fully upgraded BC (so 4 in total) and a carrier as a utility vessel (ams and production). We were playing with small armies simply because game is unplayable with normal fleets (1080 gtx and appropriate CPU). Upon encountering combined fleets we wiped out 3 BC from few cpu and a bunch of smaller units only to arrive at CPU's mothership... Upon taking first bit of damage it activated its defense field... and by launching one by one of "viper missiles" slowly, like a killer in a slasher flick, butchered everything we threw at it. With just mothership.

Please, consider heavily reworking those elements.

From a technical standpoint: game has a problem at later stages of the game that it becomes too cluttered.. 4 Player game will produce lag even at lowest settings and small fleets. I never managed to finish a single multiplayer match due to desync (2 players, 3 cpu's brutal and small fleets).

Mowing while engaging is broken for me so positioning fleet adds to the gripe with field frigates.

On the end. i feel that complex was more when it was less. It tends to get cluttered (especially on the higaran side: Vortexes, stationary vortexes (platform).

Mind you, complex team, i'm pointing at things that in my opinion are out of place and beforementioned criticism/feedback is meant to improve the project not in any way belittle people who are putting their time into it Smile

Best regards!

Edit*

Seeing development plans of adding new races.. Guys, I think its a bit wiser to polish the gem you have than force new factions... Even now races play more or less similarly (tech tree is similar as is resource gathering, even weapon systems). Imho, without flushing out, its "more of the same".
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Jelrak

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:13 pm    Post subject:  
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I found similar difficulties with Nukes, Juggernauts, and Defense Fields. My solution was to split those abilities into different factions of Hiigarans so that a player could not own all of the above in a single match. This leads to differing strategies. I have also made the Defense Fields virtually immune to kinetic weapons, but partly vulnerable to missiles, mines, and bombs and fully vulnerable to energy beams.

However mine is still the Classic version and involves somewhat more of an industrial approach to ship production that may prove to be somewhat off-putting to any who might wish to simply enter into a quick skirmish.
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Beghins

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:38 pm    Post subject:  
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Thanks for the feedback, really appreciated.
I'll consider this for the version 13, in June.
About the lag and the difficulties to play with many ships in late phase I think is resolved, just now in current builds.
Other points are design but I'll pass on them one by one, thanks again

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 3:04 pm    Post subject:  Hiigarian Resource collector ODD behavior
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i have play complex 12.2 quite some time now, i managed to play 1 Hiigara vs 4 Extreme AI strength. All the time with complex 12.2 i notice the resource collector behavior is odd. when i sent scavenger and resource collector to collect RU from blown asteroid, supposedly the resource collector will carry the debris to the nearest ship to drop it but somehow those resource collector prefer to drop it to mothership straight away and refuse to drop it to ship just next to it.

when in comes the scenario where asteroids are covered by high radiation nebula field and my scavenger equipped with anti radiation field. those resource collectors kill themselves by leaving the anti radiation field as they rush towards mothership, i could not get them to drop their resources to scavenger which is just next to them...lol

Poor resource collectors... and they ruined my game quite many rounds...lol

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here is my gameplay as example where you can see those odd resource collector behavior. you can jump to the time when i have entered GREEN NEBULA field and try VERY HARD to get those resources...lol

one more thing i need to point out. the time required for resource collector to drop the debris into mothership takes too much time to be done. when there are so many resource collectors coming, they lined up and basically a sitting duck waiting to die when enemies attacks...
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Oni

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:59 pm    Post subject:  
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Yep typical homeworld behavior.
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Beghins

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:37 pm    Post subject:  
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I know, we can do something for this, btw you have a lot of lag, I can assure that C13 will rum more more smoothly!
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:06 pm    Post subject:  
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Oni wrote:
Yep typical homeworld behavior.


Do you mean that is normal?

Beghins wrote:
I know, we can do something for this, btw you have a lot of lag, I can assure that C13 will rum more more smoothly!


Well.... i am running the game on my slow Laptop i5 3337U, Nvidia gt620M (overclocked), SSD, 8GB RAM, WINDOWS 10 pro 64-BIT + game mode on.

Actually i dont expect it to be able to play complex but it did...lol

but good to hear C13 will optimize the game, i look forward to it. but i dont expect much from my slow PC...lol
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:48 pm    Post subject:  Few more suggestion
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Based on complex 12.2, there are 2 suggestion I have.

1) the "complex battle field game type" is not as fun as complex 9.1 "complex extra" . Complex 9.1 enemy waves does not based on enemy CPU mothership production, I like the way 9.1 spawn enemy waves. While complex 12.2 enemy waves are based on CPU production which also relies on RU which CPU collect. The complex 12.2 enemy waves will comes into problem when the entire map RU has depleted and following enemy waves turns out to be much easier to defeat as enemy waves continues. Overall, the game play are short and not challenging.

2) this is to solve the RU problem for the 1) suggestion.
The RU fusion need some tweak for more RU production. The total cost to build and upgrade ships and fusion technology is too high for such little RU generation. I have calculation it would took hours to cover the cost of fusion before it yeilds "extra RU"
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Beghins

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PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 11:58 am    Post subject:  
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point 1 is fixed I think,
point 2 needs clarification, which race?

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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 2:38 pm    Post subject:  
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Beghins wrote:
point 1 is fixed I think,
point 2 needs clarification, which race?


I only play Hiigara race for both complex 9.1 and 12.2 and yes i am refering Hiigara race.
Well... In complex 9.1 the fusion tech is much practical for RU crisis as mobile refineries able to generate RU which is not in the complex 12.2.


To be honest, i have no idea how to balance the game but i would say the " complex battle field" game type RU source need some adjusent for long gameplay for further enemy wave ronunds. Else , both CPU and player could not last or survive long gameplay.
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Beghins

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:16 pm    Post subject:  
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ok in build 37 you'll notice improvements on fusion and the RU fields in "battlefield" mode are more durable
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Koril

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:46 pm    Post subject:  
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Since Turanic Raiders are my favorite faction, I can't help but make a suggestion regarding them;

I like how they are far more straight forward and simple compared to the other factions, but I feel they lack a late-game punch necessary to compete with the other races. That might be solved with the addition of a destroyer and a general purpose frigate The sheer power other races can throw at you chews through ion frigates and corvettes like crazy, and their carriers just don't seem to pack enough of a punch by the time you unlock their cannons. Even fully researched, the enemy just seems to be able to field MORE ships than I can, which is probably because they get to field 4 or more destroyers or other capitals.

Maybe I'm just playing them wrong, I can't be sure.

Edit: Also it seems like Turanics just cannot generate enough power. Late game they're all at 0% bleeding .7 power with no ability to run shields and half-powered weapons. Power research is not enough to save them.


Last edited by Koril on Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:02 am; edited 1 time in total
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Beghins

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:57 pm    Post subject:  
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ion frigate must have an additional ability to make them more powerful I'm agree
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:06 am    Post subject:  
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Beghins wrote:
ion frigate must have an additional ability to make them more powerful I'm agree


Right off the top of my head would be giving them a Trinity Cannon Shot similar to the carriers as cooldown, like the heavy bombs.

They could also probably benefit from a greater unit cap to compensate for their two missing ship classes. Not having Destroyers/Cruisers/BattleCruisers means missing out on a LOT of firepower that the other races can throw down. That's like, six BIG ships they just don't get to have.
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Oni

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:28 am    Post subject:  
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Why dont make unlimited carriers and turn them into capital ships fleet
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