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gssfacet

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 5:01 pm    Post subject:  New player questions
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Hi all, new complex player here, installed last week. I've looked around at the faq and other topics and while I did find answers to some questions,I haven't found answers to some others, so I figured I'd make a topic to ask the experienced players.

1. Hig Torpedo Frigate upgrades. There are two, "Callisto" and "Anti-Capital," but the tooltip says both of them serve anti-capital purposes. What is the difference between these upgrades?

2. Engineering division. I often find that I need to spam like 20+ upgrades that I don't even want just to get sufficient research score to build this thing and unlock all the good Hig stuff. Is there a different/faster/more efficient way to go about this? Vaygr CPUs always seem to get Battleships way before I'm at engineering division even if I'm spamming research nonstop. How can I compete with them until engineering division is finally available?

3. Initial build order. Is rushing a Scavenger a good strategy? I like how it builds its own collectors/refineries/platforms, so that your MS can focus on building ships. Is it safe to rely on Sweeper modules early in the game? What is a good time to build a crew station? Also I have resorted to starting at 30 honor points so that I can research the 1st crew barracks, because if I start at 10 honor I can't seem to get to 30 without fighting the enemy. But under the initial crew limitations all I have to fight with are a few fighter squads. The whole thing just seems very clunky and awkward unless I start with higher honor. Or am I missing something?

4. Ion Dest vs Missile Dest. These seem to fit the same role to me, a heavy anti-capital upgrade over the standard destroyer. It seems to me that the Ions deal less damage, but have instant gratification, whereas Missiles have travel time (and possible overkill problems?) Is there some rule as to which situations one is better than the other?

5. Strikecraft. Is it just me or does a single good anti-strikecraft weapon render ~infinite strikecraft useless? Just 1-2 flaks, or sweeper module, much less a sweeper destroyer, and all strikes in the area just suffer terrible losses. I understand that they can avoid their counters since they are faster, but it just doesn't seem very expensive to park 1-2 good anti-strike assets at each of your strategic locations, so that its unsafe for strike to go anywhere important. Is this true or am I missing something?

Thanks in advance everyone!
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Walkop2011

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:05 pm    Post subject:  
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Hi all, new complex player here, installed last week. I've looked around at the faq and other topics and while I did find answers to some questions,I haven't found answers to some others, so I figured I'd make a topic to ask the experienced players.

Great - welcome to Complex! Sure you'll enjoy it.
I've been playing Complex for a while (around when it was back in early 6), so I hope I can help.

So, your first question.
Quote:

1. Hig Torpedo Frigate upgrades. There are two, "Callisto" and "Anti-Capital," but the tooltip says both of them serve anti-capital purposes. What is the difference between these upgrades?

The "Torpedo" Anti-capital upgrade is the same one from original HW2. It allows the Torpedo Frigate to fire Anti-Capital missiles in addition to the Anti-Corvette ordinances. The "callisto"upgrade, however is quite different. Its a special attack, simiar to the Scout EMP. It allows the Torpedo Frigate to fire powerful Callisto Missiles on command. They are quite powerful - especially if you have quite a few torpedo frigates. If you use Torpedo Frigates at all, then make sure to get these upgrades! They're fairly cheap but improve their effectiveness over 2-fold.

Quote:

2. Engineering division. I often find that I need to spam like 20+ upgrades that I don't even want just to get sufficient research score to build this thing and unlock all the good Hig stuff. Is there a different/faster/more efficient way to go about this? Vaygr CPUs always seem to get Battleships way before I'm at engineering division even if I'm spamming research nonstop. How can I compete with them until engineering division is finally available?

Theres not really a way to speed it up, or goup in another way - it takes a long time to build up research score. The Vaygr do build up pretty fast. However, you can fight them. For starters, getting some fighters out there and blasting their squadrons slows them down quite a bit (more details on this in your strikecraft question); they also usually establish a secondary resourcing operation. Hit em' hard there. The Vaygr grow faster, but need more resources to do so. Taking out their resourcing operation cuts they're growth by a large margian, enough for you to catch up.

Quote:

3. Initial build order. Is rushing a Scavenger a good strategy? I like how it builds its own collectors/refineries/platforms, so that your MS can focus on building ships. Is it safe to rely on Sweeper modules early in the game? What is a good time to build a crew station? Also I have resorted to starting at 30 honor points so that I can research the 1st crew barracks, because if I start at 10 honor I can't seem to get to 30 without fighting the enemy. But under the initial crew limitations all I have to fight with are a few fighter squads. The whole thing just seems very clunky and awkward unless I start with higher honor. Or am I missing something?

This I can help a bit more with. Don't build a scavenger until you get additional crew - you need it for fighters. If you use all you're crew on resources, you won't be able to spend or fight much. I usually start at 0 honor, slowest settings for honor and research score. More strategic that way. I assume you're using Complex 7.44, not the new beta. First off, I usually use my resources to build a mobile refinery and send it off to my first resourcing operation, and build 2 more collectors than the field can handle at a time (more efficient use of travel time). Right after that, build both the crew and research stations. You don't need to do this right away; I do it mostly out of habit. More flexibility. There's usually enough resources for it to be done easily. Don't worry too much about MS defense - adressing your question on Rapid Sweepers, they can take care of the MS against almost any fighter threat for now. Use your remaining crew on building a battle group. If you're using fighters and corvettes, then make sure you toss a Light Carrier (LC) in the mix. Doesn't use too much crew, yet provides great cover and repair for your Fighters and Corvettes. You can even use the single buildable rapid sweeper on the LC for light fighter cover. Once you have enough honor (battles are good for this (but onlyif you win)) you can grow further. Don't get a shipyard until you're ready for BC's, though. Not a useful use of your crew until then.

Quote:

4. Ion Dest vs Missile Dest. These seem to fit the same role to me, a heavy anti-capital upgrade over the standard destroyer. It seems to me that the Ions deal less damage, but have instant gratification, whereas Missiles have travel time (and possible overkill problems?) Is there some rule as to which situations one is better than the other?

I've always thought the same thing here. I'm also pretty certain the Missile Destroyer does more damage, especially with the mine laying upgrade. However, Missile Destroyers are rendered completely ineffective when near Vaygr Gaurdians. They have multiple Fast Tracking turrets, which can blast missiles out of the sky with relative ease. Ion's do better here, even though Guardians have Defense Fields. The DF's have much smaller range than the Fast Tracking Turrets.

Quote:

. Strikecraft. Is it just me or does a single good anti-strikecraft weapon render ~infinite strikecraft useless? Just 1-2 flaks, or sweeper module, much less a sweeper destroyer, and all strikes in the area just suffer terrible losses. I understand that they can avoid their counters since they are faster, but it just doesn't seem very expensive to park 1-2 good anti-strike assets at each of your strategic locations, so that its unsafe for strike to go anywhere important. Is this true or am I missing something?

Rapid Sweepers do shred strikecraft; however I don't remember Flak Frigates beng that bad. A few Bombers can mess em' up pretty bad. Rapid Sweepers, though, shred all fighters to paper pretty easily. When the Complex 8 Beta is complete, though, you'll notice they have been rebalanced. They don't completely own every fighter as much as they used to. However, for now, you DO have to watch for any heavier anti-fighter assets, or your fighters are toast. Destroy them with Destroyers (DD's) or Frigates, then move in.

When fighting early game, though - a bit more information. Once you have a reasonable fighting force, as mentioned in an earlier question of yours, you can move in. Make sure you have good fighter cover - the enemy is keen on anti-fighter fighter ships at this stage. Corvettes are pretty good at blasting them here. I'd keep 1-2 Bombers, 2 Gunships, and a few Interceptors at this time. Move in (but don't get close to their MS - the motherships have powerful defense gun tha can pick out fighters pretty easily), and try to get their secondary resourcing operation. Leave nothing behind if you can. When you finish them off, if you have enough firepower, move on their main resourcing operation (preferably with a LC nearby). Avoid their MS, as usual. Blast as many as you can until you start losing any ships - then retreat. Mission accomplished. You've weakened them considerably, trust me.

Hope all that helped Wink

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 8:46 am    Post subject:  
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Thanks for the reply, it was very helpful. I have a few more questions, if you don't mind Smile

A lot of your advice was centered around early aggression. Must Hig attack? I like early aggression as much as the next guy, but I don't like being forced into it. Are expanding and teching not viable Hig opening strategies in complex?

Regarding strikecraft, I know they are always a pain to balance. I definitely would prefer they be useless than they be too strong, since theres nothing worse than an opponent who thinks the avoid/overrun macromanagement of zooming thousands of fighters around the map makes him clever. Hopefully the patch doesn't go too far the other way.

Anyways, my new problem is with crew. I can harvest my ears out but I always get bottlenecked at crew. Sometimes I've taken to building extra light carriers just so that I can get more crew cells. But actually I have an even larger problem - any time I move any carrier away from the crew station, my crew income suffers tremendously. I think for some reason all the crew cells try to fly to it even though its farthest away. Even if I build tons of other carriers and park them next to the crew station.

Anyways this is a terrible problem, since I can't move my carriers anywhere. I want to use them as frontline frigate factories + strike docking stations, like usual, but it just seems impossible given the crew situation.
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Walkop2011

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 5:40 pm    Post subject:  
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Thanks for the reply, it was very helpful. I have a few more questions, if you don't mind

A lot of your advice was centered around early aggression. Must Hig attack? I like early aggression as much as the next guy, but I don't like being forced into it. Are expanding and teching not viable Hig opening strategies in complex?


No problem at all - glad I could help Wink

For your first question, No - the Hiig don't have to attack, its simply much easier to get honor and level up (wich gains you more crew) when you attack. Atacking is on of the bigger sources of honor.

There's another way you could go about it; in a way similar to how you did it originally, but with a few minor changes.

First off, get your first resourcing operation up and running full tilt. Then, instead of immediately getting a scavenger and establishing a new resourcing operation, do something to get another CPU's attention (i.e. a very small attack - then retreat); that usually causes them to view you as bigger threat than others, which means they'll send they're forces after you for a while. This is nothing to worry about, since the MS can defend you whenever necessary for the time being and when enemy ships are lost, you gain honor. Defense is just as viable as offense honor-wise. Then, you can use your extra crew that would have been used for a battlegroup for resourcing and technology; the backbones of a good fleet.

There are many other ways you can go about this, as well - you shouldn't be forced into the same strategy over and over again.

Quote:

Regarding strikecraft, I know they are always a pain to balance. I definitely would prefer they be useless than they be too strong, since theres nothing worse than an opponent who thinks the avoid/overrun macromanagement of zooming thousands of fighters around the map makes him clever. Hopefully the patch doesn't go too far the other way.

Yeah, they are a pain. It's always been a topic in Complex (at least, for a long while). And no, actually so far it hasn't gone too far the other way - it's much better. All members of the Complex forum (including yourself) can playtest the beta as it is developed, allowing for a strong community influence on its development. It was a great idea, overall - involving everyone from day 1.

Quote:

Anyways, my new problem is with crew. I can harvest my ears out but I always get bottlenecked at crew. Sometimes I've taken to building extra light carriers just so that I can get more crew cells. But actually I have an even larger problem - any time I move any carrier away from the crew station, my crew income suffers tremendously. I think for some reason all the crew cells try to fly to it even though its farthest away. Even if I build tons of other carriers and park them next to the crew station.

Anyways this is a terrible problem, since I can't move my carriers anywhere. I want to use them as frontline frigate factories + strike docking stations, like usual, but it just seems impossible given the crew situation.

Crew is difficult to work with sometimes. It's strange, though, that you're getting bottlenecked all the time when your carriers are far from home...hmm. First off, crew cells don't increase your max crew, if that's what you're thinking. I'll define the 3 numbers in crew, and how they respond to input (you may aready know this, just thought I'd mention):

Ex. 125/140/150

125 = Your currently used crew. This number reflects how much crew you're using right now.

150 = You're absolute max crew right now. This number can only be increased through building crew barracks (Or officer barracks in the case of officers).

140 = You're currently available crew. This number increases when crew cells dock, but only until it reaches the maxiumum value. It decreases when you lose ships and their crew.

So, crew cells should only be a bottleneck if you're losing crew quite a bit.

To help remedy the problem, research the crew cell upgrades as you go along - there are three in total, one for each tier of reasearch. They help quite a bit overall. And, be more careful with your ships! Mr. Green

Also, getting more honor (and hence, more crew barracks) allows you to build a buffer of crew, just in case you lose a few ships. That way, you still have more. Its a tricky situation, I know.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 19, 2011 6:23 pm    Post subject:  
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Walkop2011 wrote:
For your first question, No - the Hiig don't have to attack, its simply much easier to get honor and level up (wich gains you more crew) when you attack. Atacking is on of the bigger sources of honor.

There's another way you could go about it; in a way similar to how you did it originally, but with a few minor changes.

First off, get your first resourcing operation up and running full tilt. Then, instead of immediately getting a scavenger and establishing a new resourcing operation, do something to get another CPU's attention (i.e. a very small attack - then retreat); that usually causes them to view you as bigger threat than others, which means they'll send they're forces after you for a while. This is nothing to worry about, since the MS can defend you whenever necessary for the time being and when enemy ships are lost, you gain honor. Defense is just as viable as offense honor-wise. Then, you can use your extra crew that would have been used for a battlegroup for resourcing and technology; the backbones of a good fleet.

There are many other ways you can go about this, as well - you shouldn't be forced into the same strategy over and over again.


What about in a 1v1 vs a player? It sounds like attacking is the only Hig option in the absence of enemy incompetence.
Quote:
Crew is difficult to work with sometimes. It's strange, though, that you're getting bottlenecked all the time when your carriers are far from home...hmm. First off, crew cells don't increase your max crew, if that's what you're thinking. I'll define the 3 numbers in crew, and how they respond to input (you may aready know this, just thought I'd mention):

Ex. 125/140/150

125 = Your currently used crew. This number reflects how much crew you're using right now.

150 = You're absolute max crew right now. This number can only be increased through building crew barracks (Or officer barracks in the case of officers).

140 = You're currently available crew. This number increases when crew cells dock, but only until it reaches the maxiumum value. It decreases when you lose ships and their crew.

So, crew cells should only be a bottleneck if you're losing crew quite a bit.

To help remedy the problem, research the crew cell upgrades as you go along - there are three in total, one for each tier of reasearch. They help quite a bit overall. And, be more careful with your ships! Mr. Green

Also, getting more honor (and hence, more crew barracks) allows you to build a buffer of crew, just in case you lose a few ships. That way, you still have more. Its a tricky situation, I know.


What usually happens is I eco boom to 3-4 RU ops and ~5 prod facilities, park them in a circle around the crew station and pump ships. This seems to be the only way to match the Expert Vaygr CPU's production, but it only works if the crew cells are flying those really small circuits. Typically I fill the available crew moments after each crew cell docks.

However, if I ever move a carrier away from the crew station, most of the crew cells seem to fly after it for some reason, ruining what was once a humming economy. I end up with 10k+ RUs and no way to spend it.

I would really like to be able to deploy carriers around the map to play a more dynamic game and try to disrupt the CPU's eco so that the game doesn't degenerate into a capital standoff which I always seem to lose.

It happened again last night, it killed me with tons of Battleships and BCs backed up by a horde of Dests, when the best I had was Missile Dests and Ion Frigs. I had a ton of them but I still lost horribly. I had only just managed to acquire engineering division when it happened.

So far the only way I've been able to kill an expert CPU is to rush a sweeper destroyer and hyperspace it on top of their main RU patch (very gimmicky strategy). In vanilla HW2, I was able to kill several expert CPUs at once, so this is very frustrating.
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