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Complex becoming too simple
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DaFranker

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:41 am    Post subject:  
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Yeah, you forgot a lot, like ECS/ECCS systems, electronics, target-locking systems, etc. but they're of little impact here, your point still gets across Wink

Killtech wrote:
And i would say costs for a bomber primary goes in weapons and secoundary for engiens and not much for the rest. you do not need anymore more life support on a fighter than a space suit has since fighters are only for short missions and most time docked on a carrier. capitals shurely will spent more RU procentualy in life support and such since you will need sleeping quarters, kitchen and stockrooms for food, munition and fuel. fighters don't need all that since they dock to refuel & rearm. Except for that bigger capitals have a construction site & repairs site due to they can build weapon modules themselfes and have self repair (fighters and corvettes of course do not).


Hence why I suggested either fuel or limiting fighters to a maximum range from the nearest dockable ship/station. Which would allow us to boost their power since they wouldn't be able to be massed or used by themselves without a supporting capital ship.
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MaxTech

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:56 am    Post subject:  
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There was a fleet wide power requirement idea some time ago but was abandoned as unworkable with the existing code. Maybe it could be reworked and made possible in some limited ways but I don't think it is very likely.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:08 pm    Post subject:  
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Actually, the FX mod does use fleetwide power requirements for their Progenitor race. I don't know the actual workings of it, but it functions essentially like Complex's crew system, only with power supply percentage and a nifty VU-like power meter instead of a headcount. The more of a certain type of station you build, the more power is generated, and the more you build/maintain ships/whatever else (I haven't played that much), the more the power consumption increases.

Also, fuel has already been done and made, there was even a generic FuelBurn.lua file which you could use as a basis (though you still needed to modify other files) to it, and there were detailed instructions for it too, on the Karos Graveyard wiki. One downside, though, is that it required editing of each individual .level file, i.e. you had to modify each map on which you wanted fuel to work.

Also, considering Beghins' systems, work, and code, I think it would be possible to code in some manner of fuel, or at the very least a maximum range from supporting dockable ships. Beghins has already done many things which were previously considered "unworkable with the existing code" or plain impossible to do in HW2. Crew and planets being examples, docking capital ships with another capital ships is another, and simulating a maintenance, an experience and even a whole economic system would be the last examples I can think of right now. Those were all things thought impossible in the earlier days of HW2 modding, yet here they are, alive and well and played by hundreds of players all over the world.

The fuel system's greatest difficulty would be in detecting whether the fighter squadron is actually moving or not, but what if we ignore that? An "immobile" fighter still consumes life support and power, which is just as limited as fuel in such a small craft. Then, there would still be the small problem of refueling, i.e. detecting when a fighter squadron is docked and giving it back its fuel, but I think that can be done.

If this is too complicated, then limiting operational range would also work, and that's not nearly as complicated.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:23 pm    Post subject:  
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If you've ever taken a while to really look over Complex the biggest problems would come from actually adding the new feature in. It could be easy to add these features from a plain Homeworld 2 install but here you'd have to carry through also changing all the various bits that depend on everything that those features would influence. It comes across as very difficult at least, though maybe there is some kind of lead that can be built from somewhere. I can't phrase this properly. It is like the frequent idea to "add a race", simple from a starting point but if done here Complex would nearly double in size and maintenance requirements for little gain.

Edited.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:52 pm    Post subject:  
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Its nice to see that some people actually read posts. Unlike Vila

Yes Vila you are indeed correct but as you said the lack of aircraft was part of the problem, if she had escorts she would definitely have had a chance.

The Point that I keep making that so many seem to be trying to ignore is that none of these ships have a role. The BB/BC/DN (which are all variations on the same thing, a top of the tree heavy Capital Ship) role is to fight its counterparts not little ships. The little ships are there to deal with the littler ships and fighters. If you build only fighters and bombers the escorts (optimised for killing them) will slaughter your fighters and bombers whilst the BB destroys your mother ship. If you Build just BB's then they will get minced by the bombers as you won't have enough protection on the BB's.

Arguments about how much more armour a BB will have in space are specious and pointless.

a) We can expect/hypothesize that weapon systems to keep up with armour/shields.
b) You make the ship totally impregnable how exactly is it going to move, with all that armour, massively increasing its mass and inertia?

All ship design is a trade off between Mobility/Protection/Firepower. There is not, and never will be a ship that can max out on all three, unless you count hollywood and rather silly manga comics. And that's unfair to Hollywood - Star Wars Death star was a very classic example of this, rather showy description of how to do it. But it was little more than a bomb down the funnel (actually thats exactly what it was) Thank god the emperor hadn't thought to invest in 20mm PDS! (or put a sharp turn in that trench)

I have no problem with super weapons, I do have a problem with invulnerable uberships.

One bomb hit -> sudden explosion is actually quite common. You might be unpleasantly surprised to see how many big ships have been sunk by a single bomb/torpedo. And even more surprised by the number of near misses to this. As I explained in my illustration that without appropriate escorts that is much more likely, the point of escorts was to remove that.

When I played HW and HW:C I always thought that this had been thought of (I didn't think it was perfect), esp in HW:C big ships needed escorts to do their job.

If in complex I see a DN wandering around without help, I shouldn't be afraid to send a carrier groups bombers after it. At present I'd be wasting my time.

On another point, why do the fighters have pilots? Within 20 years the only pilots you'll be seeing are those on airliners and those sitting in sheds piloting drones. Un-manned ships have many benefits and given the likely timescale difference between now and game I can't see why they would go back to MkI control units. It could be rationalised many ways network capacity, connections available, free workstations et al but MKI control units??

In terms of costs fighters today are hideously expensive, even drones are pretty pricey. I see no reason at all why they would get proportionally cheaper, then again in complex penny for penny fighters/bombers are about a pointless waste of cash that I can think off. I only build fighters for the pretty display if the AI sends in lots of little craft.

Why do bombers do so well against fighters BTW? Thats another major niggle. The AI seems only to build bombers after midgame and on an even match the engaging fighters seem to take pretty heavy losses.
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DJ Die

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 20, 2008 8:54 pm    Post subject:  
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but DN has completely no weapon against small ship its basicaly bigger Ion Frigate thats helpless on its own against most ships
its going to move with its engines how else? you dont need so big engines if you want to use it as defensive ship it may just sit in one place and kill everything that gets into its range for all i care in space it will move even if it has engines from fighter sure its acceleration will be close to none but it will move
yeah weapons may improve there there is only so much firepower(energy because it uses its own exhaust plasma energy) you can fit into limited space of fighter unless you make it big lumbering beast and it will become corvette Cool
and no those argument are not pointless youre not bound by gravity or drag or need to keep it afloat even now you could make ship that would be next to invincible problem is that it wouldnt float

once again i state if bomb cannot penetrate its next to useless on other hand plasma will SLOWLY burn its way through

one bomb hit which results in instant obliteration of target is due to bad construction of ship not because of the bomb if you make magazines safe enough ship will be able to take astonishing amount of punishment while remaining more of less operational as long as you dont hit weapons theres reason for all or nothing armored scheme

Death Star was pretty retarded design but it served it purpose in the damned film otherwise rebs would loose and there would be no happy end all they had to do was to cover it with some pipes that would make it next to impossible to destroy all vents and add bit of PDS hooray problem solved

i on other hand do have problem with superweapons im glad Complex doesnt have any
and which ship is in your opinion invulnerable?
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:00 am    Post subject:  
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dora190 wrote:
Its nice to see that some people actually read posts. Unlike Vila.

Excuse me?

Explain, please.
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DJ Die

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:07 am    Post subject:  
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vila wrote:
dora190 wrote:
Its nice to see that some people actually read posts. Unlike Vila.

Excuse me?

Explain, please.

seconded i mean it would be ok if you said that about me that happens but vila?
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Fury.UK

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 2:24 pm    Post subject:  
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Its nice to see that some people actually read posts. Unlike DJ Die Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:55 pm    Post subject:  
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Fury.UK wrote:
Its nice to see that some people actually read posts. Unlike DJ Die Very Happy

now we really need offtopic section for this who will ask beghins? Laughing
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